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Ozland's Avatar
United States
709 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2011  12:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Best website to attribute vams: https://www.vamworld.com

Best books to understand vams and attributing tips: The Comprehensive Catalog and Encyclopedia of Morgan & Peace dollars by Leroy C. Van Allen and A. George Mallis. Affectionately known as "the big VAM book" by collectors, this is currently in its fourth edition. First published in 1971, it was updated and reprinted in 1998. It contains a detailed listing of all known (at the time) die varieties listed date-by-date and is loaded with pictures. At more than 500 pages, it contains a wealth of mainstream information dealing with the history of Morgan dollars, grading, Counterfeit Detection, photography instruction and more. Leroy Van Allen has also put out supplements and detailed attribution guides since this work was published.

The Top 100 Morgan dollar Varieties by Michael S. Fey Ph.D. and Jeff Oxman. This guide lists popular die varieties with descriptions and detailed pictures. It offers rarity information as well as suggested values. You can purchase the latest guide, the 3rd edition, Avaliable from Dr. Fey's web site, RCI Inc

1878 Morgan dollar 8-TF Attribution Guide, 3rd edition. A guide to attributing the 8 tail-feather Morgans. It includes a system for determining the VAM number. It includes rarity and value information as well. By Jeff Oxman and Less Hartnett with photos by Bill Fivaz, directly from Jeff Oxman's web site, VAMlink.com

1878-S Morgan dollar Attribution Guide by Leroy Van Allen and Craig Lickenbrock, July 2006, 100 page bound copies with 377 photos, $19.95 + $3 P&H. Direct orders to Leroy Van Allen P.O. Box 196 Sidney, OH 45365.

The Official Guide to the Top 50 Peace dollar Varities by Jeff Oxman & Dr. David Close, Photos by Bill Fivaz and Dr. David Close. A picture-filled reference detailing the most desirable Peace dollar varieites. Avaiable from Dr. Fey's web site, RCI Inc

Elite Clashed Morgan dollars written by Mark Kimpton with photos by Leroy C. Van Allen. The 147 page book offer hundreds of photographs, descriptions, rarity estimates and values for many clashed Morgan dollars. Avaialble from Dr. Fey's web site, RCI Inc.

1879s Reverse of 1878 Morgan dollar Book by David T. Wang. A 52 page book that attributes 15 varieties of this top 100 coin with hundreds of reference pictures have been released. The Results of the collaborative research by Mr Calvin Cherry, Mr. William Eubanks, Dr Mike Fey, Mr Leroy Van Allen, and the author David Wang is presented to the Numismatic Community. Avaialble from Dr. Fey's web site, RCI Inc.

Fun With 1921, Denver Morgan dollars with Die Breaks, Die Gouges and Filled Dies, by Rob Joyce.
A detailed study of the die varieties produced at the Denver mint in 1921. Currently out of print. VAMworld information is more current.
The SSDC 7/8 TF Attribution Guide. Identification of 7 over 8 tail-feather Morgans. It includes attributions for all 7/8TF and B1 reverse varieties. By Less Hartnett and Jeff Oxman with photos by Bill Fivaz.

SSDC Official Guide to the Hot 50 Morgan dollar Varieties. An attribution guide for additional varieties beyond the Top 100 list. By Jeff Oxman with Photos by Bill Fivaz. Currently out of print. (Copies appeared at the Baltmore show, Nov 2008. Available soon?)

Guide Book of Peace dollars, by Roger W. Burdette with Barry Lovvorn. As the 13th entry in Whitman's Bowers Series of numismatic references. It covers every date and mintmark of America's last 90% silver dollar, which began as a commemorative of peace after the tribulations of World War One. The book also studies the mysterious 1964-D Peace dollar, as well as proofs, patterns, trial pieces, errors and misstrikes and countermarks.

While I am in a good mood Attribution Tips--

Here are some thoughts on how to attribute a VAM that could prove useful.

- Date position is not important for 1878 and 1921 Morgans. They were punched into master dies. Some repunching of digits, however, on the working dies can be useful.

- The 18 part of the date was, similarly, prepunched into the master dies for many of the other years. Repunching on those digits and the positions of the last two digits (and position markers, like dashes) can help attribute an obverse a lot.

- Normally, clashed dies stay paired. Looking at the reverse die, you can predict whether the n, t, mint mark, ... are likely clashed onto the obverse. If the cotton blossoms are not clashed above the arrowheads, the likelihood of an E clash is low.

- Doubling of LIBERTY indicates a II/I dual hubbing of the obverse die. This can help reduce the candidates to consider.

- A doubled olive on the reverse for an early 20th century Morgan indicates a C4/C3 dual hubbing and can, similarly, reduce the number of candidates.

- 1921 obverse and reverse dies were completely different from the previous Morgans. A lot of people see listable details that are simply part of that design. Examples are doubled ear/lip/tailfeathers, doubled reverse right star, spike from F of OF (one of the two hub designs), ...

- Cracks are not listable for a new designation. Nor are Grease Filled Dies, though some have made it in the past. In general, striking errors or strike issues are not die varieties.
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Morgans Dad's Avatar
United States
5629 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2011  01:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Morgans Dad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dave, I hope you are well, I wonder if you recall the 1893-S coin I mentioned on this thread, I believe it was labeled from the Eliasberg collection and I thought it was graded MS 67 from pcgs, and later I think it was sold to Jack Lee, the reason for me mentioning the coin was 1- the extreme toning, I thought it was bizarre, 2ndly the price it was sold for, do you recall the coin, Thanks for any effort, Mike.....Any one remember the coins look...
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BH1964's Avatar
United States
10982 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2011  02:22 am  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Ozland! I have visited vamworld.com a few times checking coins that were already attributed.

Are the first two books you noted pricey? I'm being lazy and will check prices; but how much did you pay for them?
ANA #R3154474
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aladinslamp's Avatar
United States
3076 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2011  02:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've seen prices ranging between $25 to $100 depending on if you have the latest printing...these will give you the fundmental backround need. also remember there have been many suppliments that are sold separately each year. at a modest cost..I MEAN MODEST ....
but its a place top start....one can view things online and learn also by examples others post, and read between the lines of the pick up points posted by members , it just depends on how much time or effort you have to continue to UPDATE YOURSELVES....
Valued Member
rlcbj59's Avatar
United States
175 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2011  6:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rlcbj59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a 1887-o with what appears to be an X accross it, am looking a 1888 - o with a X accross the cheek, I'm thinking I should buy this one. Here's the link, let me know what you think, anyone? http://cgi.ebay.com/1880-o-Morgan-S...em51977740dc
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2011  7:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I do not see any X across the cheek. The only reason there should be a X across a cheeK on a Morgan is if it was pout there intentional post mint
Valued Member
rlcbj59's Avatar
United States
175 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2011  7:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rlcbj59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I sent the wrong link, but Thanks, should I buy the one from the link I sent, in your opinion?
Edited by rlcbj59
01/24/2011 7:49 pm
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aladinslamp's Avatar
United States
3076 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2011  8:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Small word of advice,, this coin is not very "EYE" appealing,,,it has dings in places that just distract....you have much time to seek out wisdom and gain knowledge to buy nice coins at a good price...!!...For example, one think to learn is OFTEN EBAYERS "overuse" light to hide faults. the light bounces back at you and the detail is mostly lost, and that's there point...mo-mony, for beat up coins....A good dealer will always have fair photo's....some have EXTREMELY FABULOUS photo's....Search seller "Rarcoa" he's one of many where you can click on the lower images and they get HUGE..do doubt what your Bidding on there.... save them to your favorite sellers area to keep track of what they have,
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rlcbj59's Avatar
United States
175 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2011  8:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rlcbj59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll do exactly that, aledinslamp, ok Thanks, I'll pass on it, I hope ya'll don't mind the stupid questions while I learn, I'm in no rush to buy unless with ya'lls help, & Thanks again.
Edited by rlcbj59
01/24/2011 8:55 pm
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Ozland's Avatar
United States
709 Posts
 Posted 01/24/2011  9:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A high percentage (by many accounts as high as 70%) of raw coins sold on e-Bay are problem coins. By that, it means they will not holder with a top tier grading company. Problems include but are not limited to the following: Cleaned, environmental damage, altered dates and mint marks, rim dings, artificial toning, altered surfaces, whizzed, polished, and counterfeit.

The best rule to follow is purchase the coin, not the holder.

I will purchase raw coins, but I normally only do this with the coin in hand and it must be able to holder with PCGS. You can buy problem coins if you wish, but they still are problem coins no matter how long you own them. This particular coin (in my opinion)lacks luster and over all eye appeal. It is not one that I would purchase, but please also understand my perspective on why I say this. I am a bit of a PCGS snob in that I favor Morgan dollars in PCGS holders.
Valued Member
rlcbj59's Avatar
United States
175 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2011  6:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rlcbj59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I purchased this Morgan after lookig it up & compareing as best I could, http://cgi.ebay.com/1884-O-MORGAN-P...em4aa7f7d059 , however I cant tell the difference in the double arrow, hope I did ok. Should receive my VAM Book soon. All comments welcome please.
Edited by rlcbj59
02/01/2011 6:39 pm
Pillar of the Community
Ozland's Avatar
United States
709 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2011  8:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Three things stand out. First off, 1884-O is a common date. In terms of price paid for a PCGS MS 64 specimen, from my perspective you over paid for that coin. Two, by having a PCGS graded 1884-O Morgan dollar, you did well as PCGS is generally accepted as the top tier third party grading company.
Third, the VAM 39 is not a list coin. By that it is not a top 100 coin, a hot 50 or hit list 40 coin. So in terms of the price paid, if the premium paid was for the VAM 39, unless you wanted an example of VAM 39 for your collection, I would have passed.

You are a new collector excited about owning many of these beautiful Morgan dollars. My advise is to study what you want an example of. If the coin is something for you to study grades, it is a nice example of a MS64 coin, it is correctly graded. Under the old grading system it would be called a near gem.

If you found the coin pleasing and you wanted it for no other reason than that, you did well as I would always tell someone collect what pleases them.

The best advise given to me was to focus on what you want.
Edited by Ozland
02/01/2011 8:14 pm
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Morgans Dad's Avatar
United States
5629 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2011  8:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Morgans Dad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have to say, that advice is my thoughts exactly, collect as you like, also buy the coin, NOT the slab.......

My question, What B1 Reverse VAM is the most difficult to locate, not labeled, cherrypicked?
Pillar of the Community
Ozland's Avatar
United States
709 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2011  8:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Before the discoveries of VAM 85 and VAM 86, my experience has been VAM 80 A in Mint State condition is the hardest. That takes in to account both relative rarity and conditional rarity.

1878-P VAM 80 A

80A II/I 6 · B2b (Doubled LIBERTY, Wheat Leaves, Disconnected Leaves, Die Breaks T) (180) I-2 R-5
Reverse B2b-- Die cracks at top of all legend letters with die breaks at top left and right of T and left of N in UNITED.

Valued Member
rlcbj59's Avatar
United States
175 Posts
 Posted 02/01/2011  9:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rlcbj59 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok,gonna return it. What I've come to the conclusion of from your responses is the exact thing since finding this forum, I've been asking myself.I have been scattered brained, if you will, in my collecting. No concentratoin on one particular issue of coin, just buy. Well now I have focus & thankfully advice, my goal is to learn VAM's with help & book collect Vams at the right price. Cheap coins for grade, did I put that right? Please let me know how to find member sales.
Edited by rlcbj59
02/01/2011 9:43 pm
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