1790 Carolusiiii With Bust Of Carolus 4 - Fake?

Hello all,

I recently found a similar item of my father's...he died 7 years back, but my mum remembered him talking about once buying a "Pilar Dollar" from someone.

It appears to be the same coin as this topic was started to discuss - Carolus IIII 1790, almost identical looking (though in much better condition).







Is this also then a Boston Counterfeit? I have read on these forums that no 1790 Carolus IIII portrait was officially minted.

I would love to know if this is a counterfeit coin made in Boston to fool the Chinese. Somehow it seems a better story...

Have no weight or specific gravity details. Am not really numinist, so much as interested now a coin is in my hands - but am very glad to see such supportive community knowledge-pooling, well done all.

my thanks to you,
will.

will-walk Welcome to the forum.

Jfransch's comments are entirely correct... Your coin has the correct portrait for a coin from 1790.

As to the question of "Is it a Boston type?" I can not tell from what I can see. Nothing yet visible would point me in that direction. However, the edge detail is worth checking.

If you can take a series of pictures of the edge that also show one face (preferably the same face) then I can check theoverlaps for you. But unless something is amiss - I think it could very well be a real 8R.

will-walk The feeling of being real - weight and silver alloy (ring) is precisely why the Boston Types are so difficult to distinguish from originals. Most have passed as real for over 100 years. THEY ARE IN THIS RESPECT IDENTICAL.

The "Boston" category will first appear in print (to my knowledge) in 2012 or 2013 as part of my new book. They are a subset of the more popular "colonial" category of Portrait 8R forgeries. Their existence has been commented on before but they have never been studied and no one has ever published a complete history of the emission.

Will they increase in value or decrease once they are publicised is any one's guess. They are (in my opinion) too common to be rare so likely they will continue to trade right along with lower grade originals (as bullion). The high grades might not fare as well. Once some of these EF-MS examples are exposed as 1890s forgeries they may be harder to sell and their values might drop. Original high grade examples may actually rise in value if all the Boston's are removed from the mix.

There is a clear market for your coin as an original but a much smaller market for it as a forgery. You might want to determine if it is a real one or a Boston type before deciding on disposition.

Post edge images and we can most likely tell you with reasonable certainty which it is.

will-walk I will give it a try. The photos do show the overlap but because there are only 4 pictures it makes the continuity of the edge hard to evaluate. The darkness to the right side of each shot further reduces the portion that is clear.

The overlaps are found in photos 1 and 3. They are about the same length (hard to be positive because of what appears to be damage). The first is over the laurel leaves starting at the left most laurel and running toward the King's forehead (right to left in the picture). The end point at the left is not clear. The opposite lap is in the proper area at 180 degrees and runs from the 0 to the 7 in the date. Both ends are clear.

Here is a modified view of what you posted.






That evidence points to the coin being real.

But I also see some possible wobble in the design which best seen on a color inversion of your pictures,





If you notice - the area under the DEI on picture 1 seems to rapidly move downward toward the bottom edge of the coin and then on picture 2 moves upward to the opposite side. This rapid side to side movement is not normal. But I can not rule out an optical illusion based on the distortion in the photographs.

On the 4th picture there is an obscured area on the right side at the King's name and then another dip in the edge design near the IIII.

This wobble, if it is really there, is very typical of Boston types and is not seen on real Mexico City coins which were edged on an edging mill with retaining lips on the edge dies.

On the 4th picture I believe I also notice some diagonal marks running down and to the right on a portion of the edge. This is rather similar to the grip marks on coins that go through a single edge machine twice. If the "scratches" are parallel and cover only ONE side of the coin (as it appears) that is also a possible indication the coin is a Boston type.

So at this point while I believe the coin is most likely real I still can not absolutely rule out a Boston type. But I would also never claim based on this very limited evidence that it IS a Boston type either.

Boston type forgeries are often diagnosed on a combination of factors. A perfect Boston type might have all of the following:

1. A slightly off weight - overweight coins being rather conclusive.
2. A slightly incorrect SG - I have some in the 10.4 area.
3. An orange peel surface texture indicative of high speed rolling of the ingot.
4. Soft die breaks and odd lumps.
5. Tapered planchets due to rolling issues.
6. A severe side to side wobble.
7. An edge pattern repeated sequence. Or a die chip seen on opposite edge halves.
8. A variation in the wall thicknesses of the circles or the rectangles.
9. A clear edge boarder line running off an on the coin's edge.
10. Rectangles or circles that vary in shape or dimensions.
11. Tilted segments
12. Parallel diagonal cut lines on HALF the edge.
13. One clear overlap or two overlaps that have the reversed order of priority.

There are other clues but they rarely all occur on the same coin.

While I am discussing edges there are other edge problems that "more automatically" diagnose a counterfeit. They are:

1. ONLY ONE OVERLAP
2. Two overlaps of different lengths
3. Incorrect edge design
4. Indications of use of a collar (vertical seams)
5. Edge grinding before application of a Shallow edge pattern.
6. Corner grinding
7. Edge wear that does not match the coin's surfaces.