Article - South Carolina Studies Minting Its Own Currency

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lizzyjo Valued Member United States 161 Posts	Posted 02/10/2011 6:20 pm Thought this article may be of numismatic interest to some of you. http://www2.wspa.com/news/2011/feb/...-ar-1448025/ Discuss away! Report this Post to the Staff

Sap Moderator Australia 16817 Posts	Posted 02/10/2011 6:33 pm Perhaps they should study the US Constitution... Quote: Article 1 Section 10: No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation; grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal; coin Money; emit Bills of Credit; make any Thing but gold and silver Coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; pass any Bill of Attainder, ex post facto Law, or Law impairing the Obligation of Contracts, or grant any Title of Nobility. Emphasis mine. They can declare gold and silver coins from other countries to be legal tender, but they can't make their own. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis Report this Post to the Staff
Americanamafia Pillar of the Community United States 672 Posts	Posted 02/10/2011 6:44 pm I think the idea would be to have a private mint "sanctioned" by the state mint coin that would be accepted as legal tender in the state. Here would be the example.. A State X says Engelhard Rounds must now be accepted as payment for all debts in State X. That is perfectly legal as gold and silver for payments is legal under the constution. Are you trying to tell me your coin dealer wouldnt accept payment in silver bars as payment for a coin? The grey area would be if State X was to buy some of these Engelhard Rounds and issue paper backed by them, but as long as they said this is worth this.. exchange any time (like a silver cert used to me). In my opinion there is nothing illegal about what I just said, and would like to hear arguments otherwise. However, I am not sure the benefit of such a currency because we are allowed to buy and own precious metals for investments, and can already buy and trade in silver if we WANTED to. I also dont think shop keepers would care if they were told to accept State X silver dollars... Report this Post to the Staff
Americanamafia Pillar of the Community United States 672 Posts	Posted 02/10/2011 6:46 pm That post was not directed towards you SAP.. but towards the debate... as I do not know your opinion on the matter. After I wrote it, it kinda appears that way I wanted to correct myself. Report this Post to the Staff
Sap Moderator Australia 16817 Posts	Posted 02/10/2011 8:13 pm Quote: I think the idea would be to have a private mint "sanctioned" by the state mint coin that would be accepted as legal tender in the state. That sounds like a way to weasel out of what I'm pretty sure your founding fathers meant when they drafted that part of the Constitution - they clearly didn't want the states going around making their own coins. And that's how the people of the day clearly interpreted it, because the plethora of state-sanctioned coinages that were around in the years prior to the Constitution being drafted were all shut down, to be replaced with a mixture of US and foreign coins. Quote: A State X says Engelhard Rounds must now be accepted as payment for all debts in State X. That is perfectly legal as gold and silver for payments is legal under the constution. Not quite. It says "gold and silver coin", not just "gold and silver". A state can't declare any old pieces of gold or silver, whether ingots spoons or teapots, to be legal tender; they have to be "coins". I suppose it would have to go to constitutional court to get a definition for "coin". Could a private bullion round be defined as a "coin" before a state sanctions it as legal tender? I would have thought the answer would be, "no, it wouldn't be a 'coin' until an officially recognised nation somewhere in the world declared it to be legal tender" - that at least is the definition of "coin" by certain branches of government, such as the laws dealing with mail fraud - so it couldn't be declared legal tender in a state unless someone somewhere else had it declared legal tender. The only way around it would be if the state had an agreement with another country (say, the Marshall Islands). That other country would declare the coins to be legal tender, and then the state could adopt them as their own. However, even that might break Section 10, because making such an agreement might be construed as a "treaty". Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis Report this Post to the Staff
TenSense Valued Member United States 364 Posts	Posted 02/10/2011 8:44 pm Sap, we're not exactly using gold and silver coin alone as a payment for debts anymore either, right? So is it not accurate to say every state is already in violation of the Constitution? Report this Post to the Staff
Americanamafia Pillar of the Community United States 672 Posts	Posted 02/10/2011 9:03 pm Sap, you are correct about if it ever happens... whatever does will end up in the courts. That being said I dont think it will. BUT... if it does all the junk silver we are holding will be worth more Report this Post to the Staff
Sap Moderator Australia 16817 Posts	Posted 02/10/2011 9:58 pm Quote: So is it not accurate to say every state is already in violation of the Constitution? If every state had passed laws stipulating that Federal Reserve Notes are to be accepted as legal tender, then I would have to say "yes". As far as I know, every state has avoided this legal anomaly by never attempting to pass any laws about making them legal tender. The states don't have to pass such laws because Congress handles all such declarations of legal tender for them. While the Constitution takes away the rights of states to declare things legal tender, it does not formally claim that same right for Congress - a curious omission, given that the older Articles of Confederation had indeed given Congress such rights. One can argue (and people have) that the absence of any constitutional restrictions or guidelines means that Congress is free to declare anything at all to be legal tender: coins, notes, ingots, spoons, teapots, even eucalypus leaves if it had the desire to do so. The Supreme Court ruled way back in 1871 that fiat money backed by debt was not in violation of the Constitution, on the basis that Section 8 allowed Congress to "borrow Money on the credit of the United States". There's nothing in the Constitution to say that it ever has to repay such borrowings in gold and silver coin. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis Report this Post to the Staff
Darth Anarchus Pillar of the Community United States 1388 Posts	Posted 02/10/2011 11:26 pm It's nice to see what these publicly elected officials are doing with tax money... Report this Post to the Staff
Conder101 Bedrock of the Community United States 17884 Posts	Posted 02/11/2011 12:02 pm Quote: Not quite. It says "gold and silver coin", not just "gold and silver". A state can't declare any old pieces of gold or silver, whether ingots spoons or teapots, to be legal tender; they have to be "coins". So instead of Englehard rounds we use Canadian Maple Leafs. Of course one problem you would have is you would have to declare at what rate they are legal tender. Quote: So is it not accurate to say every state is already in violation of the Constitution? As Sap say, no, because the Constitution say no STATE may declare anything but gold and silver coin to be a legal tender. No such restriction was placed on the Federal government. There is nothing in the Constitution that requires the Federal government to only use gold or silver. It says the Congress shall have the right to coin money. Many people try and seize on the word "coin" to indicate that they could only strike coins of precious metals. But the word "coin" has another use as a verb meaning "to create" which makes that part of the Constitution read the Congress has the power to create money. And that give them the right to literally create it out of nothing (Fiat currency). Report this Post to the Staff
CheetahCats Pillar of the Community United States 731 Posts	Posted 02/11/2011 4:52 pm A Virginia delegate recently introduced a State bill similarly. He formulated the following arguments, among others, to justify the exploration thereof: Quote: "WHEREAS, all gold and silver coins of the United States are designated "legal tender" under the aegis of Title 31, United States Code, §§ 5103 and 5112(h), and must be so designated perforce of Article I, Section 8, Clause 5 and Article I, Section 10, Clause 1 of the Constitution of the United States; and WHEREAS, pursuant to Article I, Section 10, Clause 1 of and the Tenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, each State must make gold and silver coin a Tender in Payment of Debts; and WHEREAS, the Supreme Court of the United States in Lane County v. Oregon, 74 U.S. (7 Wallace) 71, 76-78 (1869), and Hagar v. Reclamation District No. 108, 111 U.S. 701, 706 (1884), has ruled that the States may adopt whatever currency they desire for the purposes of performing their sovereign governmental functions, even to the extent of adopting gold and silver coin for those purposes while refusing to employ a currency not redeemable in gold or silver coin that Congress has designated "legal tender"; and WHEREAS, "the police power" being the primary sovereign governmental function of every State, under Lane County and Hagar every State may adopt its own currency, consisting of gold or silver, or both, whenever necessary and proper to facilitate exercises of that power in aid of the general welfare of the State and its citizens; and WHEREAS, under the aegis of Title 31, United States Code, § 5118(d)(2), and perforce of Article I, Section 8, Clause 5 and Article I, Section 10, Clause 1 of, and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments to, the Constitution of the United States, Americans may employ whatever currency they choose to stipulate as the medium for payment of their private debts, including gold or silver, or both, to the exclusion of a currency not redeemable in gold or silver that Congress may have designated "legal tender"; and WHEREAS, under the aegis of Title 31, United States Code, § 5118(d)(2), and perforce of Article I, Section 8, Clause 5 and Article I, Section 10, Clause 1 of, and the Ninth and Tenth Amendments to, the Constitution of the United States, the citizens of Virginia may choose to employ as the medium for payment of their private debts whatever alternative currency, consisting of gold or silver, or both, that the Commonwealth may adopt in the exercise of "the police power" The full text can be found here: http://lis.virginia.gov/cgi-bin/leg...11+ful+HJ557 - Cheetah Report this Post to the Staff
jbuck Moderator United States 188197 Posts	Posted 02/11/2011 10:41 pm Since I am in South Carolina and the web page linked is for my local CBS station, I should probably comment, right? Well, everyone pretty much covered what I would have said. I will add that my source (yes, I know some people) tells me that the intent of this bill is to get this into the court system. Their primary goal is not to create a "SC Dollar" but to bring the current policies of the Federal Reserve into judicial review. I am still trying to get confirmation though, so treat what I just said with some skepticism. Coin Collector Since 1978 Avatar Old Avatar 7070 Eisenhower Australia Canada World CCF Members on eBay CCF eBay Search Engine Report this Post to the Staff
3stooges Pillar of the Community United States 511 Posts	Posted 02/12/2011 10:46 am Since the feds have used unbacked fiat FRNs for nearly a century, you need to focus on the repeat violator of the Constitution. Don't worry about South Carolina. Deal with the Al Capone of the bunch. Report this Post to the Staff
CheetahCats Pillar of the Community United States 731 Posts	Posted 02/14/2011 5:56 pm Quote: the intent of this bill is to get this into the court system. Their primary goal is not to create a "SC Dollar" but to bring the current policies of the Federal Reserve into judicial review. Indeed. If one reads the text of the Virginia bill, the same motive seems apparent. Report this Post to the Staff
oblakavshtanax Pillar of the Community United States 757 Posts	Posted 02/14/2011 7:26 pm yes. I'm in virginia and it what's going on here is awesome. it's exciting. Report this Post to the Staff
Conder101 Bedrock of the Community United States 17884 Posts	Posted 02/15/2011 2:28 pm Quote: I will add that my source (yes, I know some people) tells me that the intent of this bill is to get this into the court system. Their primary goal is not to create a "SC Dollar" but to bring the current policies of the Federal Reserve into judicial review So the Feds put it into court strictly on the count that the coining by the State would be unconstitutional. Easy enough to prove and it prevents any questioning of the Federal Reserves practices or policies since they don't enter into the charges. Report this Post to the Staff
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