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 Replies: 17 / Views: 2,560 |
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Rest in Peace
United States
5375 Posts |
Would like some advice on possibly selling to a dealer I've only just met. Long post ahead, but please bear with me. I have gone to another relatively local coin shop most of my life (since I was a small kid), and when I tried to sell some coins to him, he was pretty darn tough on all the grades and prices. I still made some money, though. His grading on the stuff he sells is higher, but still relatively conservative. Meanwhile, I sort of doubt his honestly a bit since I discovered some of the coins I bought from him when I was younger after not seeing them for a few years...and now I'm able to identify cleaning (I was not able to very well when I was a kid), and many had problems that I know were not noted (some obvious). This upset me quite a bit because he is one of the more 'honest' and straightforward dealers I have met, which kind of painted a dark picture of other dealers in my mind. I also kind of felt more impulse to be honest and treat him nicely because I've known him for a long time, and I didn't feel it reciprocated. So, no more selling stuff to him except junk/bullion. I don't want personal stuff to get in the way of getting a fair deal. Normally I try to cut breaks to people I deal with, but that's more for personal transactions which is why I want to be able to pull out the stops. I've also discovered that most of the dealers I've visited seem to have this 'get the most no matter the cost' mentality, and are often very devious. The interesting thing is that many seem like old folks that are easy to get along with, but once you start talking money they fight so rough. Personally, I don't really like when people are like that since I'm 2/3 in this coin thing for the fun part. Anyway, I went to this new dealer and sold him some silver and gold... got 21.5 face for the silver after calling around and telling him that that was the best offer I got from someone else. I played my cards well there and got a better offer. He didn't seem like a real scumbag or anything. Older guy, probably 65. They have an ebay account too, and they seem alright on there. I had gotten really lost and had virtually no time to sell him anything. He brought me a clip of 50 $20 bills, and I counted them up instead of running. Thank god. It was 9 short. That kind of alarmed me, even though he said that 'someone must have miscounted' or that some fell out. 9 bills? Seriously? Even though I had very little time, I looked around in his display cases and saw coins that were blatantly overgraded without even having to look closely, and many that had issues that were not noted on the holder. I am aware that often dealers will mark up coins further for insurance purposes, BUT many of these were more than 30% too high or something. The kicker is that he told me over the phone that they would pay 80% of greysheet bid for nicer VF-AU type coins. I showed him a Seated Liberty half dime in XF, he disagrees that its XF. I tell him it IS definitely XF (it was an easy XF by any collector's standard), and he says it has to be graded on the reverse too and that it can't grade XF with a weak reverse. Anyone who knows this series know that the reverses of the Seated half dimes, particularly the early ones, are almost always mushy. Its the exception rather than the rule to have a strong reverse strike on a Seated half dime, even in MS-63. And wait a minute, this guy has coins with LESS detail graded the same or higher right in his case! So even if it were theoretically VF-35, to be consistent he would be grading it XF. I ask him what greysheet bid is, he says $48. I offer $35, which is about 75%. He refuses. This coin was nicer than 90%+ of the material in his case in terms of originality and look. Normally that is okay, BUT this guy told me he would definitely pay 80%. So basically, what they're doing is they're luring you in with a decent offer, then trying to pull a little 'bait and switch' while in the meantime technically living up to the 'offer'. All the while, he does stuff like 'taking my word on how much silver is in the container'. So they expect me to be honest, and then act like that? Yeah yeah, I know getting the most for your money is important, but at least try to be reasonable about it. I think its possible that he thought that I was just some kid trying to sell a few type coins for desperately needed money because I'm 21...not true at all. I thought about going back to try to sell some stuff, and if he under grades my coins, I figure I can point out coins in his case that are graded the same/higher grade with less detail. He can't do much to dispute my grade if its more conservative than his and I have examples of his grading to prove it. Has anyone used this tactic successfully before? Has anyone here played real hardball with dealers before? I'm more than willing to be tough with this guy because I 1) don't know him and 2) know that he's going to do the same thing to me. I just have mixed feelings about this, but I have a strong hunch that most dealers are similar to a high extent, particularly in the 'go getter' culture that is pervasive in urban/suburban areas. I would like to sell to some of them and I feel capable of doing it. But I'd like to be treated at least somewhat more like another dealer eventually than some dumb kid since I aspire to be a coin dealer myself and have a huge amount of inventory. I have a feeling that they don't pull this stuff so much dealer to dealer, am I correct? Edited by coinguybrian
03/05/2011 11:33 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
What your discussing is really normal buisness practices. Many stores start out with fantastic deals on lot of stuff to draw in customers. Once your a customer, they start dropping those deals until you stop coming. With a coin store you must remember that all profits go to running a buisness and not there for you to get rich or have the best of something. There are always those exceptions but regardless, almost all coin dealers are in buisness to make money, not friends. There are always exceptions to any situation but a coin dealer is a buisness person and that is all there is to that.
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Rest in Peace
 United States
5375 Posts |
Making money is one thing, but I've been able to turn high percentages without that mentality. It's unnecessary in my opinion. I'm sure you know that greysheet bid is dealer to dealer, meaning that they're going to sell at greysheet ask or above. AKA, probably $55 or $60 minimum on that coin I offered $35 for. Probably 50% of retail. If you're talking about a decent XF-40+ Half Dime, that's probably $70 on numismedia (which is a retail price guide, obviously). I could probably get at least $35 on ebay with a mistimed auction. I really, really dislike the whole cutthroat mentality. Maybe I should just stick to online. Also, I distinguish between 'business practices' and purposely under-grading to pull a bait and switch. Edited by coinguybrian
03/05/2011 11:32 am
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Valued Member
United States
294 Posts |
Quote:
...but I've been able to turn high percentages without that mentality But do you have the same overhead a brick and mortar shop has? Your "profit margin" is going to be more flexible than your average coin shop. Quote:
...greysheet bid is dealer to dealer, meaning that they're going to sell at greysheet ask or above. AKA, probably $55 or $60 minimum on that coin I offered $35 for. Probably 50% of retail... But you're not making a dealer-to-dealer transaction when you walk into his shop. Keep in mind that when you walk into a shop to buy you are a retail customer. When you walk into sell you are a wholesale seller. Quote:
...purposely under-grading to pull a bait and switch It has been said numerous times that buyers always under-grade, and sellers always over-grade. It's a fact of life. You probably have a better chance of controlling the weather. Quote:...probably $55 or $60 minimum on that coin I offered $35 for. Probably 50% of retail. If you're talking about a decent XF-40+ Half Dime, that's probably $70 on numismedia (which is a retail price guide, obviously). I could probably get at least $35 on ebay with a mistimed auction I'm a little confused. Are you buying or selling in this instance? You offered $35 for a coin with a greysheet ask price of $60? And he refused? Again, you are a retail customer in this instance. Is this really a reasonable offer? As far as the grading differences, you said you had very little time, but examined the coins (in a case) closely enough that you determined they weren't accurately graded. You must be very good at this. See the whole under-grading/over-grading statement above. From the numerous posts I've read on this topic, it seems many people are unrealistic in their expectations when it comes to buying and selling. The fact that you sell some stuff, be it in a shop or ebay, does not necessarily make you a "dealer" in the eyes of those that operate B&M shops on a daily basis, and have been doing so for years. Keep in mind that most dealers will discount per the amount of volume they get from a particular individual, and reciprocity they receive. A dealer is more likely to offer a deeper discount to another dealer based on how much and how often that other one has purchased from him in the past, and how much the other dealer discounts items the first dealer purchases from him. They usually do not offer this privilege to the average person who walks into their shop, although they may offer some discounts to good regular customers. Bait and switch is also a fact of life, especially when it's not done in writing. This is why the consumer needs to educate himself and comparison-shop. The bottom line is, if you don't like the deal, just walk away. Another will be along soon. Edited by omahaorange
03/05/2011 12:31 pm
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Rest in Peace
United States
5375 Posts |
No, he refused my offer of $35 on a coin with a dealer bid of $48, and a retail of $60+ when he told me 80% of greysheet bid over the phone. My offer price was 73% of greysheet or so. That was what annoyed me. The overgrading was obvious enough that I could tell at a glance, yes. It was flagrant. I've gotten pretty good at grading a number of series based on nonstop buying on ebay with bad pictures, etc. Understandable that I don't expect to be treated like a dealer just walking in, but I would like to be treated as more than just some kid eventually. No, I don't overgrade when I sell, and undergrade when I buy. I don't really like when people do that and I refuse to act dishonest. I am however careful about potential problems when buying, and I try to evaluate the risk realistically. There are ways to make good money without being scummy...you just have to be creative I guess. If these dirty tactics are 'okay', then why not just be like aboncom or greatsoutherncoin? GSC isn't as bad as abon, but you get the point. Edited by coinguybrian
03/05/2011 1:41 pm
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Valued Member
United States
294 Posts |
Quote:
No, he refused my offer of $35 on a coin with a dealer bid of $48, and a retail of $60+ when he told me 80% of greysheet bid over the phone. My offer price was 73% of greysheet or so. That was what annoyed me.
Just so I understand where you're coming from (and so I don't branded a "troll" simply because I don't agree with the original post), simply put Greysheet "Bid" is comparable to "wholesale" pricing and "Ask" is equivalent to "retail" pricing, correct? Bid is what dealers offer each other (more or less) and Ask is what dealers offer their retail customers (more or less). So, as a retail customer you were offered the coin at 80% of Bid (as opposed to 80% of Ask). You offered a price that was an additional 7% below bid (making your discount 27% instead of 20% of the wholesale price). The dealer turned you down. Am I right so far? If this is the case (again, correct me if I'm wrong), I don't understand why you would be annoyed. He's using an industry-standard pricing guide. I'm thinking 80% of bid is fair; to expect less in your situation is unreasonable, keeping in mind that, to him, you are a retail customer, not another dealer. Had you been negotiating off the Ask price, then I may see your point more clearly, although again, if I don't like a deal I just thank the seller and move on. You need to look at the whole picture. How much does he have in the coin, and what does he need to get out of it? He's surely not taking a loss just so you can make a profit. As far as grading differences, did you take the time to discuss with the dealer why you disagreed with his grade, and why you felt your assigned grade was closer to the actual one? I'm thinking no, because you stated your time was limited. This is how negotiation goes. Negotiation takes time. If you could have stated your case, maybe he lowers the price. But he may have also been insulted by the low bid you offered after he gave you a pretty decent discount. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
5375 Posts |
No, maybe my choice of words was off. I was trying to sell him the coin and gave him a price. He did the same thing with another coin or two also. He had directly offered me a certain percentage of dealer bid for MY coins if they were 'better type coins' over the phone. I asked him to confirm...."So, 80% of greysheet bid for better grade VF-AU type coins"? He said yes. I came in, he tried to call this 'not XF' by low balling the grade of my coin because he didn't want to make good on what he told me, all the while he had similar coins with less detail right in front of my face graded the same or higher. Then he asked me what I wanted for it, I said $35 and he refused. $35 is about 73% of greysheet bid. Even the other dealer probably would have accepted but I don't want to deal with him with selling type coins for reasons stated. I had an 1858-O Half Dime I believed was AU-50 awhile back trying to sell some stuff to the more conservative dealer, he agreed AU, gave me around $80 with a greysheet bid of $100. Greysheet bid is usually a guide for selling to dealers, greysheet ask for selling to customers though they usually bump it up even further by a little bit. This was my coin I had brought in. I had brought a few others coins in too just to see if he would make good on what he told me over the phone. I'd be dumb to be insulted over being offered something from a dealer at 80% of greysheet bid, haha. That'd be quite a deal coming from a dealer. Edited by coinguybrian
03/05/2011 4:07 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
952 Posts |
Keep in mind that you have the ability to deal with him or not......you can always sell your stuff on here or on ebay without worries like dealer games. I agree with the person who said earlier that this was normal way of doing business for many dealers. I literally stopped going to shops unless for supplies as I was sick of the same baloney - in several cases dealers would nitpick the coin that was problem-free and offer $40, like he was doing me a favor, while having a similar coin that was graded the same by him and priced @ $110, which was clearly overgraded. I found this several times, most commonly with SLQS (which is what I've been focusing on recently), and early on bought coins in the $100 range that could not be sold on ebay or here for anything over $45-50. Many times coins graded the same will go for much differing prices...take Teletrade, for instance. Many of the coins on their auctions go for much more than what one would get from ebay or a dealer, plus you pay a buyer's premium. Caveat Emptor, I guess. I really believe that I do a better job @ grading...i would rather undergrade a bit than overgrade, which is rampant on ebay. At any time you can go on there and find 100 diff coins that are listed as unc or BU but barely make XF. I have some other thoughts but they have been covered by other comments here, which have covered the subject pretty well. Since you noted that 2/3 of the reason you are in the hobby is for fun (same here, I love these little round pieces of stamped metal), you might want to avoid anything that ruins your fun/adds stress to it, which may include doing business with this dealer. |
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Valued Member
United States
294 Posts |
Okay, my bad. Sounded like you trying to buy as I read further into the post. My only comment would be that it would be unreasonable to expect a price offered, sight unseen, over the phone. Greysheet Bid is the dealer-dealer pricing. It sounds like the coin is unslabbed, and you are not a dealer (at least in his eyes). Without seeing the coin, and not knowing the details of the initial phone call and how you described the coin to him (and for obvious reasons, I don't want to hear just your side of it, I won't be able to give you an unbiased opinion based on one side of the story), I can only say, move on to the other dealer (you're selling, not buying this time, and you think he'd take your price, so what's the problem), or sell it yourself. It a free market society.. But why get annoyed? This happens all the time, in any business. Just move on.
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Rest in Peace
United States
5375 Posts |
Eh its not going to ruin my life, I just find it ethically questionable I guess. He didn't offer me 80% for this coin specifically, just any nicer grade type coins. I'll probably visit some other dealers I guess...but I got a decent price for the bullion factoring in ebay fees, shipping, etc. |
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Moderator
 United States
16679 Posts |
I have not dealt with a brick and mortar coin shop for years when it comes to buying and selling coins. I DO go in often though to pick up supplies though. I am lucky I guess as we have many large shows in my area several times a year, that is where I do the majority of my buying. They are competing with other dealers so you are apt to get much better deals, at least that's been my personal experience. Then there is ebay. I hunt around there often for deals. I guess the bottom line is I try to avoid local dealers. swcoin.ecrater.com
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Rest in Peace
United States
5375 Posts |
Do you have any tips for working with dealers at coin shows, Dave? I tend to do the majority of my coin buying on ebay...just try to nab stuff ending at off times with bad pictures. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts |
I'm not impressed with people that say one thing & do another. In this instance you have a guy that claims to pay 80% of greysheet & tries to get around it by undergrading. It doesn't make any difference if that is ethical or not, the reality is it's just one of many ways people try to pad their margin. All you can do is accept it as fact & deal with them or not.
I've been in one form of business or another most of my life & I have seen greysheet prices. IMO there isn't enough spread between bid & ask to make a decent living without doing a tremendous volume. Unless you have really deep pockets or a day job you will starve before you can build up that much volume. If you have a bricks & mortar store your cost of goods need to be around 50-60% of your sale price, working out of your pocket you can bump it up some.
Edited by trdhrdr007
03/06/2011 09:58 am
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
Dealers often sell to other dealers under bid. One time I had a few pieces that I didn't typically get walk-in customers for (before ebay), so I showed them to 4-5 dealers, all of whom I feel are reputable. Offers were usually within a few bucks of each other. One coin I was expecting around $75 for brought offers from 50-60, and one offer of 250. After a "run, do not walk", I asked him how he determined the price, thinking maybe I needed to learn something to cherrypick in the future, and he just said he felt it was a $250 coin, so far be it for me to argue with cash money. Another time I was set up at a car show flea market and an antique seller from a few spaces down came over with a scarce Morgan. "I know this is worth at least $200, but it's unlikely a serious collector would even ask me, since I don't handle many coins. Give me $100 and we can both make money." The Internet has done a lot to change this, since a search checks everyone, not just coin dealers, but even so, if you don't specialize in an area, most buyers are going to be leery about buying from a non-expert who may have missed a fake, or some flaw, etc. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
9104 Posts |
The point I distracted myself from is this. Grade is really a waste of time when you're dealing face to face. A grade is simply a shorthand means of telling some who can't see it what a coin looks like. Instead of saying "it has full rims and five letters of liberty", you just say vg+, and everyone has a rough idea of what it looks like.
In person, it's real simple. What does it look like? Well, it looks exactly like THAT, in your hand. Call it G or VF, and it won't change what it looks like one whit (or dansc, if you prefer). The bottom line is I want 35, are you willing to pay 35?
Arguing about grade is pointless, and even the slobbing companies try to eliminate that with "market grading". Yes, it has wear, so it's au58, but it's got such great luster that it should bring a ms63 price, so it gets graded ms63. I'd prefer to grade it accurately and say "a knowledgeable collector will agree that an au58 that looks like this is worth 63 money, so that's the price."
What grade is this? I feel it's a $35 grade. I've actually seen dealers talk like this.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
952 Posts |
excellent points bigfredd......the stuff I buy anymore I eyeball with a loupe for 10 mins per coin (or so my wife says). I only buy coins I want to keep in my collection for a very long time. If I don't like it, it's a no-go no matter what the price. If I do like it, then we try to come to an agreement. Most dealers are flexible, esp at shows.
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Replies: 17 / Views: 2,560 |
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Posted 03/05/2011 11:18 am
