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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,751 |
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New Member
Canada
17 Posts |
I wanted to hear from the members of this community on the topic of private sales of expensive coins. How does one go about being 100% sure that a coin is genuine? First step would be to buy only professionally graded coins by PCGS and NGC, but what else can you do? Does bringing a local dealer to the meeting help and relying on his/her expertise and knowledge? Is there a possibility of PCGS coins being tampered with? Here is an article of just that taking place. http://www.startribune.com/business/119371484.htmlPlease let me know your thoughts, and if you feel comfortable, your buying strategies with regards to verifying the genuiness of a coin (s) on purchases of coins valued at $1000 and above.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
642 Posts |
IMO your best protection is to buy from trusted sellers. Different people have a lot of definitions of trusted sellers, but for me on collectibles, a trusted seller is someone who has a reputation to uphold, years of proven experience etc. - Seller is trusted and been around a while. - You have the option of authenticating the coin with a 3rd party. - If any problems found, a good return policy where you lose nothing. Best protection  If a private party can offer all that, then go for it!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
Dealers that belong to the PNG (Professional Numismatics Guild) used to have a lifetime guarantee for the coins genuineness. I imagine they still do. Best advice is from rkingston above, buy from a trusted dealer. And read and learn and look at large numbers of coins so you learn what to look for. Stick around the "World Coin Section" on this forum and you can pick up a PHD in Counterfeit Detection, it is a common topic over there.
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New Member
 Canada
17 Posts |
I suppose that is sound advice if you have a choice. How do you go about it when its a private party though? Someone that is not a dealer, but perhaps someone who either inherited them, or collected but is in financial need, etc. Bringing a local dealer to the meeting would present a different set of challenges itself. I suppose I already heard the best answers to this question and I am just thinking outloud. Still would like to know how plausible is it for PCGS to be tampered with without the knowledge of the coin holder.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1801 Posts |
The problem isn't with the PCGS holder being tampered with, the problem is fake PCGS holders that are coming from China with the fake coin already in them.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
642 Posts |
Here's a recent thread on the forums.... https://goccf.com/t/85517fake PCGS holder that was a REALLY GOOD fake! If you're buying from a private party that '...is in financial need' this may bring some emotion into the transaction and you may end up on the wrong end of pricing. If these are high priced items, I would make sure you're familiar with every coin you're about to buy. Maybe see if they'll let you take them to a dealer for a quick appraisal. If you have a raw coin in MS condition, the price between a solid MS63, and 64, 65 can be huge. Very easy to get ripped off. You can get bargains but just be careful.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Due to the excessive fake coins, fake slabs, reopened and resealed slabs, there is no longer a sure way of knowing what is real and what is not. I've met dealers that were fooled with fakes. I met a dealer that had purposely opened a slab, changed the coin, resealed it just to show people they are not really safe anymore. I suspect it is possible that many members right here have fakes in their collections and don't know that. I'm sure there are dealers that too have fakes for sale and don't know they are fakes. Some have said it is easy to detect a fake Silver Coin by weight. No longer true. China uses real materials in many of their fakes to make them more realistic since their purpose it to sell as a rare coin, not bullion. I try to only buy coins at coin shows where there are many professional coin dealers. This is by no means fool proof, it only means for a suspecious coin, there are numerous people to ask if they think it's real or not. Buying on ebay or the internet is sort of gambling. You spend money and have no way to really know if what your going to get is real or not. No one to verify. No way to really know what you have until to late in many cases. For me since I'm not selling any of my coins, ever, I might have a fake or many and just don't know. I'm happy with what I have and in the future, whoever gets this mess, will have to worry about fakes.
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Valued Member
United States
287 Posts |
I've been cracking my recent bullion gold purchases out of the slab (if someone else slabbed them for whatever reason) so I can verify weight and measurements....
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Pillar of the Community
United States
759 Posts |
Sadly, I think Carl is correct. There just isn't any way to be 100% sure every time with every coin. There's good advice above to minimize your risk and beyond that, I think you have to be conscious of your financial exposure and decide if you're willing to accept that. You could employ every precaution and there would still be a set of potential circumstances where you get burned.
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New Member
 Canada
17 Posts |
I've always thought that there is a psychological aspect to minimizing risk as well. What I mean by that is observing the seller by asking questions pertaining to the coin and even though it's not hard to lie it is after all another test and it can certainly give you clues as you watch the person interact and describe where they got the coins, why they are selling and why "that" price. I'm not saying take the seller to a low-light bar booth and interrogate him Guantanamo Bay-style but I imagine its another way to sniff out any red flags.
Has anyone every employed that tactic as part of their due dilligence? Any tips?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1064 Posts |
That last one won't work for me; I've proven to be a lousy judge of character. I also have bought a counterfeit, a raw $10 Gold coin I got on ebay many years ago. The seller was a Calif coin store with a huge 100% rating, and this was back in '98. I didn't get the coin submitted to TPG until some years later, and it was a blatant counterfeit (MM shows heat marks around it, local dealer was very embarrassed he hadn't noticed that, and he'd been in the business 40 yrs). I don't believe the seller knew it was counterfeit, and I carry it around as a reminder of what can happen.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3592 Posts |
Best tip I can think of is to know your coin of choice,study real and fake ones as there is a huge wealth of information available on the internet.I bought a 1909-S vdb from a dealer and returned it within a day because I determined it was fake....just by the information available on line.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Quote: What I mean by that is observing the seller by asking questions pertaining to the coin and even though it's not hard to lie it is after all another test and it can certainly give you clues as you watch the person interact and describe where they got the coins, why they are selling and why "that" price. As already noted many people could not or do not know who is telling the truth and/or lying. And then too, today may good dealers do not know the difference in many of the well made fakes either. Weighing coins, using a magnifyer, asking a freind, etc. are still just taking chances today. The olden day fakes where usually obvious due to little knowledge on how to make them. Today, in China, they are using soficticated machinery to maake our coins and with high grade materials. True Silver may well be up there in value but a coin worth ten times the Silver content to a counterfeiter is well worth that. It is a shame that as any hobby or anything else grows in popularity, so does the amount of people that exploit that. I always get a kick out of flea markets products. One of my favorites is batteries. I've seen DinoCell, Dinocel, Durasell, Duracel and many others to the point I know longer know the right spelling. At auto supply stores I'm usully asked if I want the real replacement part of the so called after market product. I've always wondered about the risk with brake pads made in China.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
648 Posts |
Just saw this Morgan on ebay am I seeing things wrong? or does the hologram look like it has the measles'' 1900 O/CC Morgan Silver $1 PCGS MS-62 1900O/CC NR ,,also maybe bumps in the field?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
3692 Posts |
I would say as well, buy from a dealer who has been in business for years upon years (don't take their word for it and be respectful always). It's more expensive to buy from a reputable dealer sometimes but the high-end stuff should not be played with, for it pays in the end to be safe. These kinds of dealers have spect years building their reputation to where it is presently and they won't jeopardize that for a measly $100-$1000.
Never EVER be intimidated into committing to a coin just because you've been scrutizing it for 10 minutes+ straight. The money/power is in your hands. Turn them in when you're ready.
Edited by Libertad 04/14/2011 1:55 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
648 Posts |
Whoops sorry did not give enough info on Morgan ebay item http://cgi.ebay.com/110673586698 ,, can anybody tell just from the pictures they are in focus and good enlargements seller seems OK but.. Thank You
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,751 |
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