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Silver Down 4.00...look Out Below

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biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2011  09:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, then is driving the silver price? It sure as heck wasn't the ten ounce purchase another poster made this morning!
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JackB's Avatar
United States
1064 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2011  10:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JackB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Silver drops as CME hikes cost of speculation

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/si...n-2011-05-02
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BH1964's Avatar
United States
10982 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2011  12:27 pm  Show Profile   Check BH1964's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add BH1964 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
4. The U.S. Money Supply is not the source of Silver's rise. M3, the broadest measure, started to contract as a result of the economic crises and both M2 and M3, which include M1 (currency), have been relatively flat.


You are looking at this like it is just simple math. It's not. The economic ramifications of adding $7 trillion in unfunded liabilities to our money supply are enormous and people who invest in commodities realize that.


Quote:
5. U.S. has approximately 180T in financial and real assets. Our debt levels are significant but they are backed by immense national wealth and military power. Average U.S. citizens tend not to realize this because so much of our wealth is concentrated in the hands of a tiny few (top 1-2%) of individuals. US net worth net of all debts exceeds 60T.


Some of your numbers are very optimistic. $180 trillion? Where did that come from? You think the gov't will seize everything in the world to pay our debts?

Realize that the U.S. gov't has about $2.5 trillion in annual revenue and almost $15 trillion in debt and growing. Our liabilities are growing exponentially while our revenue is stagnant or even declining. We have a huge debt crisis on our hands and no real way to get out of it because of the system in D.C. is set and the American people are now aware they can vote themselves money and corporations are aware they can buy themselves tax breaks.

Lastly, gold is roughly 4 times rarer than silver but costs 35 times as much and gold has no industrial uses. Silver was grossly undervalued for many years due to manipulation in the silver markets. You can be sure that today's silver prices are no fluke. They are based on real demand against a limited supply of a valuable metal.
ANA #R3154474
Rest in Peace
biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2011  7:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Lastly, gold is roughly 4 times rarer than silver but costs 35 times as much and gold has no industrial uses.

Gold contacts in electrical equipment are a common use.
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ctus's Avatar
United States
15 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2011  8:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ctus to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There is gold (albeit very tiny amounts) in the electronics of nearly every cell phone. Given the amount of cell phones produced each year, it adds up quite quickly.
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Ed_B's Avatar
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2011  8:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
In the meantime I'm making sure that my bullion purchases are nice to look at because I may have to hold them for a long time if the SLV and I are wrong. - Junior

Good call, Junior. I am doing the same as you and really doubt that the SLV is wrong.

IMHO, the big silver ETFs are one of the BIG differences between 2010-11 and 1980-81. We did not have them back then but we sure do now. They are BIG players in the silver market, owning at least 220M ozs. This will increase as more people buy them to hedge their dollars with something that is a lot closer to REAL money.


Quote:
So far The Fed has taken 97 percent of the dollars real purchasing power through inflationary printing.

I grew up in the 1950s, so remember well when a paper dollar (US Silver Certificate) and a silver dollar were 100% equivalent. One could be traded for the other at any bank in the US. Today, it takes around $45 in paper money to buy *1* silver dollar. Because of this, I see paper money as being worth 1/45th of a dollar or about what 2.2 cents was worth back then. That sure looks a lot like a 97-98% loss in value to me! And this is just since the late 1950s. The dollar has been eroding since well before that time.


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Ed_B's Avatar
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2011  8:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I think perhaps some more profit taking eh. Who knows, we may see that happen several times, via a flux from 45 to 49, until it finally cracks that peak.... - Silverhawk

I agree, Silverhawk. There is some heavy duty price support for silver in the area of $45 per oz. Not sure why but it definitely is there.
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Ed_B's Avatar
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2011  8:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You can't borrow your way to prosperity without paying a steep price. We will see the price to paid over the next few years and it won't be pretty. - BH1964

My thought is that we cannot borrow or tax our way to prosperity whether we pay a steep price or not. It simply cannot happen.

Prosperity is the result of low taxes, a business environment that promotes idea and job creation, decent infrastructure, an educated work force, and a level playing field that people can count on. US business today has been literally licensed, regulated, permitted, and taxed to death. It has basically given up trying to succeed in the US because of the above.

Only by moving over-seas to locations where both the people and the government understand that business is not simply a convenient cash cow to be milked at the whim of government and then converted into hamburger when it is no longer producing milk, do we see REAL productivity, job creation, and prosperity. Investing over-seas has gone from a nice portfolio booster to an absolute necessity.
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Ed_B's Avatar
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2011  8:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
IMO the main driver is investor demand....mainly due to the fact that silver ETF's have been buying almost all production in excess of industrial needs.
- trdhrdr007

I agree. It is also quite likely that ETF demand will exceed that of industry and will be a major competitor for industry. Investors will demand silver and gold as hedges against inflation and a collapsing dollar. Since investors are less price sensitive than industry, they can out-bid industry any time the demand equals or exceeds the available silver supply.
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trdhrdr007's Avatar
United States
2335 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2011  8:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trdhrdr007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I agree. It is also quite likely that ETF demand will exceed that of industry and will be a major competitor for industry. Investors will demand silver and gold as hedges against inflation and a collapsing dollar. Since investors are less price sensitive than industry, they can out-bid industry any time the demand equals or exceeds the available silver supply.


That's one possibility. The other is that investors move on to the next big thing & the bottom falls out of the silver market. I can't foretell the future so I don't know which will happen. What I do know is a prudent person keeps both possibilities in mind.
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Ed_B's Avatar
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2011  8:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Inflation, as measured by the CPI...

Now there is a number and a calculation on which to bet your financial future. Not. It is WELL known that the government and the Fed cook the books to show that the US economy and their policies in the best possible light. When REAL inflation is running at 8-9%, which it now is, the CPI is showing 1.5-2%. Oh, that's right. The CPI does not include either food or fuel that ALL of us MUST buy. It does include the housing that most people are not buying, though. Had I cooked my numbers like this in grad school, my professors would likely have suggested that I work in a non-science field of some kind... say yard maintenance or perhaps fast food preparation and serving.


Quote:
US net worth net of all debts exceeds 60T.

I have not checked into this but, again, if the source of it is a government agency I would be HIGHLY suspicious of its accuracy.

Forgetting debts and assets for moment, I have seen info on a number of web sites that show the US unfunded liabilities (mostly Medicare, SS, and Medicaid) at somewhere between 100 and 130 Trillion dollars. Perhaps it is this gigantic financial fiasco waiting in the wings that has so many people spooked? If not, then let me suggest that they are un-spook-able.
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Ed_B's Avatar
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2011  9:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The economic ramifications of adding $7 trillion in unfunded liabilities to our money supply are enormous and people who invest in commodities realize that. - BH1964

Those who invest in commodities realize a great deal that the pointy-headed academics and government types apparently do not. The value of the dollar was once backed by a large hoard of gold in Ft. Knox and in various large banks. Now that the dollar is not backed by gold, the perception is that it is backed by the US economy and the US government's ability to tax its productivity.

That would be fine IF... the money supply was equilibrated to US production and both grew and shrunk to keep pace with it. Unfortunately, this is not the case. The US money supply has been allowed to balloon hugely and with no relationship to US productivity whatever. This is causing a world dollar glut with the result that dollars are too plentiful now to be worth as much as they once were. Not a week goes by without seeing more US dollar buying power erosion; hence higher commodity prices.

IMHO, this trend will continue until either the dollar collapses completely OR DC gets its act together and implements an austerity program that forces the government to become smaller, live within its means, and that generates enough extra free cash flow that a significant part of the debt can be paid down. Interest rates will have to rise, possibly considerably, entitlement spending will have to be reduced, spending will have to be reduced or at least frozen, and taxes will have to rise. All of this will create the financial and economic pain that terrifies so many, yet is absolutely essential to rebuilding America's financial strength. I wish that I had more confidence in our politicians to "man up" and handle this problem but their reputation so far does not suggest that to be likely. In lieu of that, about all that we can do is to make sure that our individual financial futures are as solid as we can make them and that we are not depending on the government for our financial future or success. Anyone who does depend on the government is sure to be badly disappointed.
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Ed_B's Avatar
United States
4008 Posts
 Posted 05/02/2011  9:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ed_B to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Lastly, gold is roughly 4 times rarer than silver but costs 35 times as much and gold has no industrial uses.

Actually, gold is about 16-17 times less abundant than silver. This is the source of the 16-17:1 theoretical price ratio of gold:silver.

Gold is used in the chemical industry to some extent and more so in the electronics industry. Gold plated electrical contacts are quite common, actually. Not saying that the gold tonnage used in industry is high or anything but there are some uses for it. Those electronics recyclers profit by recovering the small amounts of gold from discarded TVs, computers, cell phones, monitors, etc.
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biggfredd's Avatar
United States
9104 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2011  03:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biggfredd to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There is gold (albeit very tiny amounts) in the electronics of nearly every cell phone. Given the amount of cell phones produced each year, it adds up quite quickly.

There is quite a bit of gold in circuit boards, especially older ones. Any volume computer repair/recycling service has a drum they fill with bad boards, and it can add up to substantial money.
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vermontensium's Avatar
United States
16679 Posts
 Posted 05/03/2011  05:29 am  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just bought a 10 oz. bar from a co-worker that thought the ride was over. He actually sold it to me below spot! I'm not worried.
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