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 Replies: 13 / Views: 1,953 |
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Valued Member
Canada
88 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Not an error..... this is called 'drawing' of the peripheral devices (stars and letters) toward the rim..... The cause is die wear (worn die).
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Valued Member
 Canada
88 Posts |
Thanks. That is good to know. Is this common? How long and how bad can they get before they change the die. I have just never seen this before. Mike.
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Not so common on Morgans as far as I know, but on earlier issues, dies were often employed until they looked like this..... notice the stars seemingly being drawn to the edge....... cracks all over the place, (this one has a crack completely through the head at the hairline).  I imagine that an average Morgan die had a lifespan of about five days (40 hours), maybe a bit less..... I think that Morgans are pretty clean coins for the most part, and since extreme Cuds, large radial breaks, and other major die issues are scarce, this would lead me to believe that there was an available stock of dies (at Philly anyway)..... I would expect that (more frequently) the branch mint coins might show effects of limited die stock, (with drawn peripherals). |
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Fascinating. Rarely seen, except on 1921-S.
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
I imagine that each mint had its own methods of dealing with issues.... I don't imagine that this effect is known on a New Orleans coin.
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
1881 was the largest year of Morgan production (excluding 1921) in San Francisco. Although plenty of dies were available and the date is not particularly known for cracking, all the same San Francisco was turning out their typically-superior strikes. Heck, the slightly-worn example presented here shows signs of having been a strong original strike - look at the definition left in the lines inside the largest wreath leaves.
I wonder if San Francisco was, for some reason, better than the other mints at getting the entire usable life out of their dies, or if their striking process wore them out more quickly.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
I believe Zee is correct...not many years have these lines, some coins denominations are calling them trail ? something lines/dies? or what not, but due to extreme die wear....I have an 1887-s that's full of them...As SD notes, 1881-s is known for its superior strikes and full fine details....even in lower grades the strikes show superior thru....making you think they are a better grade than they are....Amazing to see a coin like this for this specific year...Thanks for sharing...
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Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
It is my belief that SF employed a different press than did the other mints, although I doubt that would have made the difference...... I think that you are correct in the notion that SF was somehow able to concoct their own recipe for Morgan success with just the right pressure, die gaps, planchet annealing, etc...... Possibly talent and work ethic were qualities of the chief coiner, and mentoring through the years may have played a role?
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Valued Member
Canada
88 Posts |
So if my coin here is from a worn die, that means it would be a gradual wear and there should be other coins that have slightly less and slightly more of these lines before they retired the die. With this I should be able to put it into a specify VAM right? I have just not seen this before, so I know there must be more out there. It would be nice if records were kept as to when and why the die was retired, that would make this a pinpoint science. You would think there would be records right? Mike |
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Pillar of the Community
2224 Posts |
Great discussion, thanks. Perhaps this should be its own Post.
Begs me to question - Were not all mints under the same director ? Did all the dies originate from the same source ? Was there not a policy or procedual book as to how the minting process should proceed ? I've often wondered why NO had week strikes, SF better strikes, different years different results.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
Quote:
It would be nice if records were kept as to when and why the die was retired That would have made Leroy Van Allen's life work a much shorter study but alas, no such records exist. Quote:
Were not all mints under the same director ? Yes, but each mint also had its own superintendent that managed day-to-day operations. Quote:
Did all the dies originate from the same source ? Yes, Philadelphia produced all dies until 1995 when Denver opened its die shop. |
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Valued Member
Canada
88 Posts |
Ok, well put, but back to the coin in the first post. Would an "error" like this make the coin more valuable, or would it take away from the value as it is not a " VAM" or able to place... Just curious, also, if I sent this coin to a TPG how would they grade it/ attribute it? Thanks |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
As far as I understand, they are not listed as die errors by themselves. Although there are times when known vams display extreme die fatique helping to diagnose the die state, as such most likey this would be an LDS late die state for what ever VAM your coin is... |
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Replies: 13 / Views: 1,953 |
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Posted 05/03/2011 6:58 pm
