More Mexican Forgeries

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Hello XXXXXX, The coin you have posted is a modern Chinese counterfeit. If you send me your email address I can send ppictures of what a real 1882 8R looks like. I am a collector who specializes in counterfeit 8Rs and I have been an authenticator and collector for over 50 years, Bob

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You wrote the weight should be 27 grams but on the coin is stamped 20 G. so that it should weigh 20 grams.

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Hi XXXXXX,

First of all I should probably tell you that I am an expert in the Cap and Ray series of 8 Reales. This is in part because I have spent the bulk of my 50 year career in coin collecting and coin dealing involved in this particular series. To check out who I am just Google the words "Swamperbob counterfeit". You will see some of what I have written on the subject. I am at present retired but I authenticate coins for a Raleigh, NC dealer part time.

The following letter was written by me over the course of a few days to answer sellers who can not believe their 1882 dated 8Rs are fakes. I have modeified it to update the ebay references.

The 1882 Zs OM 8R is a well known Chinese forgery that appears on ebay at least 3-5 times PER WEEK. That is probably why you may have found others that look like yours. But there is a factual error you can very easily confirm. The 20Gs in the legend does NOT REFER TO the weight of the coin. The 20 Gs is part of a short hand assayer's expression used in Spanish countries to indicate the silver purity, The expression 10 Ds 20 Gs means - 10 Dineros 20 Granos - In the Spanish system pure silver is 12 Dinaros and there are 24 Granos in each Dinaros. Therefore the expression 10 Dinaros 20 Granos refers to 10 and 20/24ths Dinaros or 10.8333 Dinaros silver or 10.8333/12 = 0.9027 fine silver which is the theoretically correct assay. The mistake you are making is exactly the same mistake being made by the forgers. They do not know 20Gs does not refer to 20 grams.

You can find this definition on line or on page 17 of the introduction to the book "Resplandores" by Mike Dunigan and J.B Parker. Just google "10 Dinaros 20 Granos" and you should get https://www.mexicolegal.org/monedadeplata2.php as the first entry. There are also several coin forums that provide the same definition. So with no room for uncertainty whatsoever, 20Gs has nothing whatsoever to do with the weight of the coin.

If you look at any Cap and Ray coin 1/2R, 1R, 2R, 4R or 8R they ALL SAY THE SAME THING yet their weights are different in each case and NONE weighs 20 grams exactly. The correct weight for an 8R is 27.07 grams.

Counterfeits made in China have been common since WWII. They were sold to servicemen overseas for a few cents. The soldiers thought they were getting a real silver coin for a fraction of the actual metal value. This same operation was used during the Vietnamese War and since then has been going on in flea markets in Hong Kong and other locations in the far east. A friend of mine recently returned from Hong Kong where he said these kinds of coins were selling for 10 cents to $1 in hundreds of different designs.

There are no anti-counterfeiting laws in China and the industry operates in the open. VERY few of the exported counterfeits have the word COPY stamped on them because it is only US law that requires that word and only for counterfeit coins produced or imported after 1974. Since many of these coins enter as souvenirs they are not routinely confiscated by customs.

The coin in question should look like the coin posted in auction 130544749745 which runs until until July 20. That coin is encapsulated by PCGS a top tier third party grader. There are two other originals posted as well 360378238986 & 270779898799. All three coins use the same die style exactly. They do NOT match your coin.

Here is a copy of the pictures posted in the second ebay auction # 360378238986.

********************** picture *********************

If you compare this picture with your coin you should see the difference rather easily.

The real 1882 coins were made using three different die hubs. A die hub is the positive die used to make the working dies that strike the coins. The differences in the three hubs is extremely minimal - the biggest changes are the shape of the assayer's initial J - two hubs have a big loupe while the other has a very tiny loupe at the bottom. The other key distinctions are the bands on the eagle's leg which grips the cactus. On the first two hubs there are NO bands but the one with the "Straight"J has 4 horizontal bands on the leg. The final difference is the shape of the snake's head and length of the tongue. Here all three hubs differ. The first hub illustrated by the coin above has a small poorly formed head on the snake with NO TONGUE. The second hub has a snake's head more completely defined with an eye, open mouth and protruding tongue. The final hub has a large snake's head with a clear eye and mouth but NO TONGUE. The coin above is the hub with the Full J - poorly defined snake head with no tongue and it has a plain leg. (The apparent bands in the picture are due to dirt and toning).

The three auctions listed above 130544749745, 360378238986 and 270779898799 use the identical die hubs.

There is an auction posted on a Buy it Now for the version using Hub 3. The number is 380340522943. I have copied the picture for reference:

************************ picture ********************

The coin in this last picture shows the "Straight J" form of the letter - the large well defined snake's head with NO tongue and the banded leg. But when compared to the coin first illustrated the differences are minor. Compare either with your coin and you should readily see the difference.

The differences between any of the coins above and yours are simply too numerous to list. The Chinese counterfeit is known to come in 8 different versions but all are VERY CRUDE - NONE matches any of the correct designs.

These counterfeits are collectable items by fellows like myself who do collect counterfeit coins - however the value of Modern counterfeits is usually minimal. I own dozens of counterfeit 1882 Zs JS 8Rs. A modern counterfeit coin is typically worth $1 to $15 OVER the value of the metal used to make it. Common examples like yours are in the $1 plus metal range while the high quality silver Chines forgeries of Pillar dollars are in the $15 plus silver category.

Most Chinese strikes of this particular design are either Nickel (magnetic) or Copper-nickel (non-magnetic). I have never seen one of this type struck in any alloy of silver. The weight is typically near 20 grams not the correct 27 grams because the Chinese misread the legend and they thought the 20 Gs meant 20 grams. That 20 Gs stands for 20 Granos and old assay term referring to the purity of the silver NOT THE WEIGHT. So an example near 27 grams might be of some added interest to collectors.

All examples I have ever seen use a reeded edge applied with a ring die - this looks like a modern US quarter ||||||||||||||||||| The original coins had an engrailled edge applied in a separate step which looks like a bracket }}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}] or sometimes a parenthesis )))))))))))) with or without a dot at the mid line. Any version using a different edge design would be a potentially scarcer variety and would be worth more until they become common in the marketplace.

The last original on ebay right now - 390308366478 (worn hub 3).

There are two counterfeits (called Replicas) offered in 150630217054 but the picture is not clear. You could ask him for pictures on the 1882. But here is a link to one of the coins just like yours being sold as a Replica by a Chinese merchant. http://cgi.ebay.com/Replica-1882-Me...160613799538

If that auction can not convince you look at the edge of the coin. It is REEDED it should NOT BE.

As I noted above, the Chinese are making hundreds of different varieties of forgeries. Most have reeded edges regardless of the coin type and what the original edge looked like. The coins are struck then pressed through a ring die. This process does leave tell-tale traces however. The ends of the reeds are typically open (there is not enough metal to form a perfect reed using a ring die. The tops of the reeds have a line down the center and open ends. The forgers have learned to lightly sand and round off the corners of the coin and sometimes the top of the reed. Obvious grinding around the coin's edges is a clue to forgery.

Below are 4 sketches I made to illustrate how it is done and what a ring die reed looks like:

************************* 4 Sketches ******************

Reeds should extend almost to the edge of the coin. Edges rounded by what appears to be excessive "wear" are suspect especially when similar wear is NOT SEEN on the faces of the coin. The Chinese add these Reeds to obscure the edges of the coins and because they know the average person has no real idea about what should be on the edge of older coins.

Here is a photo of the edge of a typical Modern Chinese coin edged with Ring Die


************************** Photo *************************

Reeds on a real coin would come closer to the edge than this - SO when you see any silver coin that is being sold for TOO LITTLE money or is offered by a seller who says they "FOUND" the coin or " inherited" the coin or they have "NO IDEA" about what it is check and be careful.

When something is too good to be true - IT USUALLY IS!

Bob "swamperbob" Gurney

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Dear swamperbob,

IM SORRY BUT THIS COIN IS NOT FAKE IT WAS GIVEN TO MY FATHER IN LAW BY HIS PARENTS. WE HAVE ACTUALLY GONE TO A PLACE TO GET IT CHECK AND ITS 100% REAL. SORRY!

exclusivehotty09

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Hi, I looked on ebay other sellers coins and I don't see any difference between my coin and the others.

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I have took coin to a expert who says coin is silver he will check design to see if it is real.