Another High Grade Fake/Counterfeit 8R - And Friends

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Author	Replies: 9 / Views: 1,325
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 07/17/2011 10:40 pm This weekend has been a good one for me. But several buyers of 8Rs on ebay may be in for a big surprise. This weekend there were 5 Contemporary Counterfeits sold within a few hours of one another by three different sellers. All 5 coins fall into the legal to collect contemporary counterfeit type but they are far from equal in rarity or value. The auctions themselves and the results are worth a brief mention. The first case involves a VERY common counterfeit that appears on ebay 10-12 times per year. It is NOT silver. The coins is German Silver and has NO intrinsic value at all. Even to someone like me it is of minimal value because it is so very common and this example is low grade. Here is the auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/1842-Z-OM-8-REA...110715929445 This coin should have sold for $15 in my opinion - $25 is too high and I love forgeries. But it sold for over $40. Why is this auction interesting? Look at the red flags - 1. Low rated seller - his feedbacks show ZERO coin expertise. 2. One Day auction - no time to warn ebay. 3. Estate sale for aunt? Why the rush? 4. Not a coin specialist but knows this is 90% silver. 5. Checked by a certified jeweler - I always take my coins to a jeweler. 6. Seven day return policy (too quick) and 7. Rather high postage which is not refundable in the event the coin is counterfeit. All of those factors should make bidders EXTRA cautious but here 4 bidders bid more than $25 for a nearly worthless forgery. The next three auctions are for better Counterfeits but still sold for too much. The problem here is that there is NO warning that the coins are FAKE. I wrote to the seller and HE KNEW. He said he would check with the high bidders. The first of the three is a very common 1836 from San Luis Potosi. The coin is seen at least 6-10 times a year on ebay and is available in very high grades. The design is incorrect for 1836 - several aspects are simply incorrect. If that is not obvious - bidders should skip the type. http://cgi.ebay.com/MEXICO-1836-Pi-...360378552326 The second is a variety listed in Riddell # 365 which Riddell referred to as "Very Common". It is in my experience one of the 6 MOST common Contemporary forgeries on the market. Literally thousands still exist. It was a VERY successful forgery because it is almost IDENTICAL to the originals. It is suspected that these coins were made in France for export to the US. The maker was likely the same company that manufactured the Mexican dies. It is a forgery that is usually seen on ebay weekly but this one is a bit better than typical for grade but $86 is far too high. It is a $35-40 item and has test scratches. http://cgi.ebay.com/MEXICO-1832-Do-...390329406691 The third coin is the first cousin of the preceding coin. It is the Riddell # 371 and is on a par with the 1832 Durango for rarity and value. It is admittedly a nice looking example of the #371 but the final price $120 is FAR TOO HIGH. http://cgi.ebay.com/MEXICO-1834-Do-...390329406823 I guess I am bothered by the fact that it is likely that a novice bidder or an unsuspecting bidder made the bids thinking the coin was real. The seller justifies the sale because ebay does not allow counterfeits to be properly described. This while correct carries the "let the buyer beware" policy of ebay too far. The seller's presumption that bidders should KNOW before bidding presumes too much knowledge for the typical collector. The final auction was for an 1839 Ds RM 8R fantasy in the highest grade I have run into. This coin is closely related to the Riddell # 415 eagle but uses a different Cap die. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...140575648291 While the coin cost me $113.50 it is far rarer than any of the coins listed above and I was bidding against informed bidders who were TOLD it was a Contemporary Counterfeit. The auction was NOT stopped by ebay. This is how ebay should be run. Report this Post to the Staff

MathieuMa Pillar of the Community France 1591 Posts	Posted 07/18/2011 02:09 am awcoins know what he was doing, he should have marked the coin as contemporary copy ... I wish ebay would have a better / clearer politic about this, I spend some time reporting fakes (considering the last posts we had, I should have spent some more times with some sellers from asia ...) I saw they were trying to pass a petition for a law in spain - wanted to sign but only spanish citizens can sign it. Report this Post to the Staff
realeswatcher Pillar of the Community United States 1962 Posts	Posted 07/18/2011 07:15 am To play devil's advocate here... Just about THE first thing you learn about Mexican Cap & Rays 8R is that there are a lot of old fakes out there (aka contemporary counterfeits), especially for the earlier dates. Now, with those 1830's "Durango" pieces... it should be pretty clear to someone with some basic knowledge that the surfaces are off and there's a good chance these are period forgeries. If an advanced collector of these knows that they are relatively common Riddell types and not worth this kind of money, that leads us to conclude: A) (possible, though not likely) They were purchased by someone who is JUST starting out with contemporary counterfeits and has the impression that they are ALL really valuable. In that case... "eh", better hit those books ---OR--- B) They were purchased by average "collectors" who think these are genuine... Now, if you're dropping $86 or $120 on an old coin, shouldn't that mean that maybe, just maybe you should have a teeny-weeny clue about what what you're spending all that money on? As you briefly noted - "If that is not obvious - bidders should skip the type." Which is a more ominous sign for society - obvious scammers, or people with more money than brains... Report this Post to the Staff
realeswatcher Pillar of the Community United States 1962 Posts	Posted 07/18/2011 07:31 am Also, I know a collector of period counterfeits is going to be perpetually frustrated by this situation... but it's a constant cat-and-mouse game for legit dealers with pieces like this. ebay has no choice from a business standpoint but to protect buyers as much as they can... A buyer who finds out he got stuck with a bum piece fumes, gets mad at ebay and is dissuaded from buying again (maybe even files a Not As Described case and worst-case for eBay/PayPal, the house ends up paying)... POed buyer also rants to his equally enlightened friends that ebay is full of con artists, thereby altering their potential interest in using ebay. It adds up to lost revenue. On the other hand, you have dealers with pieces they suspect/know are period forgeries, and those dealers know that there's a dedicated market for these and ebay is the best way to reach that market. However, they must toe the line between making that captive audience aware of what they have WHILE not alerting the ebay police... Unfortunately, there's no good solution. Report this Post to the Staff
TwoKopeiki Pillar of the Community Czech Republic 803 Posts	Posted 07/18/2011 11:14 am I've listed properly described counterfeits on ebay in the past and never had an issue with my auctions being taken down. Last auction was as recently as a month ago, I believe. Have I just been lucky? Or does it require someone reporting me to have it taken down? Report this Post to the Staff
MathieuMa Pillar of the Community France 1591 Posts	Posted 07/18/2011 12:44 pm I thought that properly described counterfeits were allowed - unlike those not described properly in order to deceive buyers (like most chinese crap) The only ones I report are those that I suspect being fake (some are really easy to figure out) and not described as such - and I most of the time contact the seller first. Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 07/18/2011 4:53 pm If you are a seller located in the US - ebay can and sometimes does terminate your auction of you describe a counterfeit correctly. They do not care if it is properly described or legal - they terminate it if it is turned in. Outside the US the auction stays if it is considered legal where you live. I know UK and Canada get this treatment. For those who report auctions as fakes - there are very few that ebay will stop UNLESS the seller admits they are fake. They do not respond to short duration auctions and will not stop any auction that the sellers insists is REAL. This applies even to the 1882 Zs JS 8R Chinese piece of junk. What has developed is a "language" used on ebay that can tip off a counterfeit collector but not ebay. Also you can describe the coin vaguely and say you don't know - or sold as is etc. Contemporary as a single word hits most of the fakes. It is the most commonly used search word for counterfeits. Report this Post to the Staff
biggfredd Rest in Peace United States 9104 Posts	Posted 07/18/2011 5:14 pm I see a quibids banner in this thread. Multiply ending prices by $0.6 to see what the items really sold for. Report this Post to the Staff
collectall Pillar of the Community Canada 610 Posts	Posted 07/18/2011 5:43 pm Interesting.But I still don't like counterfeits or copys. But then again that's just me. By the way,don't think I'm bashing copy collectors.I'm not. To each his own. Report this Post to the Staff
swamperbob Pillar of the Community United States 5362 Posts	Posted 07/19/2011 12:09 pm collectall There are two areas where counterfeit collecting is and has, at least in my experience, always been accepted as a part of numismatics - the North East US and the Eastern part of Canada. I don't know where you hail from but half of my ancestry came from the Maritimes in Canada. They left France in the 1600's. The other half lived in Colonial Massachusetts. Basically it is the colonial areas of settlement that are involved and the reason is simple. Britain dumped millions of counterfeit and underweight coins in her colonies to keep them repressed financially. In the colonial US, the result was that 10% of all circulating coinage was BOGUS and that is a minimum estimate. Numbers go up to 50% in some cases especially if you add in "underweight" issues. In Canada, it was worse. I have seen legitimate estimates of upwards of 60% of the minor coins were bad as late as the 1850's. These circulating counterfeit "evasion halfpennies" and issues like the "Tiffin Tokens" have been collectible since I was a kid. Most colonial collectors have an interest in BOTH types. To me, this all means that counterfeits were encountered in daily business transactions by the average person on the street. These circulating copies are part of the history of my ancestry and they are of historical interest in general. But even someone with no interest in collecting them - needs to know they existed and STILL exist. Understanding what they are is critical to AVOIDING them if you so choose. The worst possible thing, in my opinion, is for any coin collector to ignore the issue of forgery. It is a fact of life and we can not hide from it - just as my Canadian and US colonial ancestors could not. By the way, I only won one of the 5 coins I posted - the last. I just hope the other 4 high bidders recognize they got fakes. The worst possible scenario is that the buyer just puts the coin away PRESUMING it is real. Report this Post to the Staff
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Another High Grade Counterfeit 8R - And Friends