Maria Theresia Coins | Restrike Thalers

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first of all thanks for the welcome to the forum.
I'm interesting to understand how to identify Theresa value coins since I have many in my collection but I'm not in a position to clearly identify them. Try to figure out if someone of them worth to be kept,using the parameters described at http://www.theresia.name/en/svariants.html I would like to ask if there is any book that can help me to identify the rest of the coins.

i have notice that in my collection there is a coin without a signature and I would like to ask about your opion.





Thanks in advance.

Hello and welcome.

You have posted some very old and interesting varieties of the MTT - they are FAR from bullion coins.

This series is best viewed in Hafners small book "The Lexicon of the Maria Theresien Taler 1780" published in 1984.

There are 4 key diagnostics used by Hafner in his book.

The Coat of arms, The Cross after the date, The shape of the brooch and The number of pearls in the diadem. Other finer details decide the exact die style and rarity.

Knowing just the 4 key features keeps you from mistaking this as a bullion coin.

The coat of arms has a central shield with a V shaped bottom that is a "B" style - modern restrikes use a "C" shield that has a curved point like the outer shield. The earlier versions the "A" type have a rounded bottom.

The cross here has a period following it - the modern restrikes have NO period. There are also shape differences in the cross but start with punctuation. The varieties are:

a. X
b. .X
C. .X. with a curved top 7
d. .X. with a straight top 7
etc.
This coin is actually a type d a .X. with the heavy X.

There are three main brooch types - oval with no pearls, Round with pearls and oval with pearls. This is a type II - all modern restrikes use the type III oval with pearls.

The final key diagnostic is the number of pearls in the diadem.

This is not an exhaustive list because there are literally hundreds of differences but these 4 set the framework for Hafner.

Based on a VERY quick look I suspect the coin is an 1833-1838 restrike from Venice and is in the $200 price range. That is a preliminary only. Typing one of these takes me quite a while because of subtle differences.

BUT anytime you have both a round brooch and a period after the cross you are dealing with a coin valued well OVER $100 at a bare minimum.

In case you just missed it... There aren't many posters on ths forum (if any) better than swamperbob.

*disclaimer: This poster not affiliated in any way with swamperbob or swamperbob industries. This post paid for by The Independant Coin Forum Posters of Cyberspacia.

Thanks for the comments - but there are other collectors here more versed than I on many issues. It just happened that the MTT's are a series I collected while in High School.

I got my start with them in 1962 or so when I bought one in a local coin shop that looked a bit different to my eye. It was an 1850-1860 era restrike and that got me interested. So I bought a lot of examples and studied all of the variations I could find. Even in the common post 1860 Vienna strikes there are hundreds of varieties. Hafner's book is bilingual and once that came out it provided a great frame of reference for specialists. It is like the Overton of the MTT varieties - only it focuses on MAJOR varieties not minor ones.

I have retained 24 varieties made before 1853 but I still enjoy hunting through dealer scrap silver boxes for MTT's that do not belong in the junk. I often travel to shows with a couple MTT's to explain to dealkers what to look for. There are fewer errors of this type lately but some people still do not know that MTT restrikes have been made in EVERY year since 1780 and that the older ones are valuable.

Bob: I wonder if the coin below will fall on 1833 or earlier date of restrike?

mvojnovic - You asked




The answer is YES they are but the new ones made after about 1865 are easier to distinguish from the older ones. The coin you posted is an example of one of the newer ones. The exact date might take a few hours to determine because you need to match the hub used BUT I would guess not much before WWII at the oldest. It is one of the high production bullion issues of the 20th Century.

Here are a few diagnostics from an earlier post - the NEWER bullion type is at the RIGHT of the picture.

The oval brooch with Pearls is normally seen on the newer restrikes. There are a couple early versions of this feature but the rest of the coin is quite different. The brooch on the right is ALWAYS SEEN on the 20th century issues.



This next feature is the small feathers on the wing. In general the addition of the small feathers between the larger ones is a later feature. But to ID a new restrike what you need to look at are the three small feathers under the large feather pointing at the T. The three small feathers are the SAME LENGTH. This feature is ONLY seen on newer issues. So if this single detail is present you can be rather sure you have a newer restrike. These newer restrikes are not fully cataloged by Hafner because they are all essentially bullion coins and the distinctive differences are VERY SMALL compared to those above.



Pandesalapi You asked




Great question because if the host dates AFTER the middle 1830's the counterstamp CAN NOT be real.

In this case, the answer may not be clear. It appears to be a Milan Restrike The Hafner 39 with the very large SF - round brooch with pearls - pointed inner shield. They were made from 1828-1841. So it may be real. However, it is also THE MOST COMMON coin from that period and examples could be purchased well below $100 - especially in the grade of your coin. That said it could be a target host to apply a forged YII stamp. The combination would be worth much more than just the host.

But that presumes a very savvy forger was involved.

The stamp looks VERY nice (almost too nice). However, the way it is worn into the coin design especially on the eagle side makes me fairly certain it is a real one.