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 Replies: 11 / Views: 1,715 |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1442 Posts |
A 1859 DP2 cent MS64 PCGS and ICCS crossgraded sold in the June 2011 Torex for $4300 + fees ($5500 or so).  Only problem: it wasn't a 1859 DP2. Not even remotely close.  PCGS got it wrong. Fair enough. ICCS then crossgraded it identically, copying the mistake. A pretty heavy miss for a pretty significant Canadian coin. Even a half blind amateur boob monkey like me can see that.   But it gets more interesting. Not easy to tell from the photo, but I suspect this may in fact be a 1859 DP4. If not, then a minor doubling like 2011 Charlton p.283.  This was an absolute blunder by the 2011 Torex Auctioneers, PCGS and ICCS. So much for crossgrading by a "Canadian expert".   What I wonder, is whether the buyer blundered, thinking he bought a $5500 DP2...or whether he knowingly bought a "rarer" DP4 in a stroke of sheer brilliance  ...of course, if it is just a minor doubling...then...all I can say is...OUCH...   |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
1442 Posts |
To be fair to ICCS, the flip itself is not pictured.
It COULD be a description mistake by the 2011 Torex Auctioneers - I've seen plenty of those.
In a similar auction, I bought a 1872 A/V 50 cent ICCS in EF-45. What I received was a PCGS slabbed EF-45 coin that was more of a VF25. I was eventually refunded, though the coin is up for auction again with the same ICCS description.
So if for example, the ICCS flip said "DP9 variation", that is fair.
I'm also wondering if ICCS used to lump all the non-DP1s as DP2s in the past. Some of you would know.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1353 Posts |
At least two out the four PCGS 64 red DP#2 coins in their census are not really DP#2 coins. Seen them in hand.
http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1353 Posts |
I just pulled my auction catalog. This is 64 red at both PCGS and ICCS. PCGS called it a DP#2. ICCS called it a DP#2 Variation, which is what they call a lot of DP 9's that are NOT a DP#2.
I am the one that crossed this coin at ICCS several years ago. It is the variety on page 283 of the Charlton 65th. I was going to buy it from a dealer in the PCGS holder, but noticed it was not a #2. The dealer said it was. The dealer agreed to let me give it to Brian at the show on a one day turn around and Brian called it the variation - no sale to me. The asking price was $8,500.
It showed up in a PCGS registry set about two weeks later, so somebody bought it. I am glad to see the ICCS cert is still with it, so the buyer could see both opinions and make up his own mind.
So, I mentioned I had seen two 64 reds in PCGS holders that were not actually DP#2. This was one of them.
http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
Edited by bosox
08/09/2011 06:49 am
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Valued Member
Canada
103 Posts |
@bosox...do you think this is a dp4, like danlos9551 thinks? Is it rarer than a dp2, or more common?
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1442 Posts |
Thanks bosox...the doubling made me think of Charlton p.283, but I couldnt get the vines to fully match.
I have trouble telling DP4 from p.283, although the DP4 doubling is "stronger" than p.283.
Its sad that the dealer couldnt' tell. You can't really mistake a DP2 for any other DP.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1353 Posts |
The auctioneer actually described this factually. He stated that PCGS had it in a DP2 holder and the ICCS cert said DP2 Variation. Both true. It is not a DP2, but in this case I don't think TCNC did anything wrong. If the variation designation did not prompt the buyer to see exactly which re-punched variety was in the holder, shame on the buyer. I have seen cases where auctions contained coins mis-labeled as DP1 and DP2 in TPG holders, with no other cross-grade to reference against. When I see these I bring them to the attention of the auctioneer. In some cases they have pulled the lots, which I believe is the proper course of action. In a couple of cases they sold the lots, which meant they lost my future mail bids forever. This re-punched variety is, IMO, slightly more common than the DP2. I would have thought $3K was a fair price. $5K is more than I would pay for it. http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1581 Posts |
> It showed up in a PCGS registry set about two weeks later, so somebody bought it. I am glad to see the ICCS cert is still with it, so the buyer could see both opinions and make up his own mind. Ah, but someone could simply toss away the ICCS cert. Considering all the blather on here lately, what is done to protect the collector when one TPG has clearly found a flaw in another's certification? It would seem to be appropriate that a TPG admit to such discrepancies, without having to admit to any error because honest disagreements will exist. People could rightly argue that this is one definite need for a look-up for ICCS. I'm not convinced it is much help in general, because they become counterfeiter DBs, but in this case seeing cross-grades is important. What would PCGS do with a CCCS slab? Would they cross-grade it, or insist that it had to be cracked out? |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1442 Posts |
I tought PCGS always cracks them out and puts them in their own slab when "cross-grading".
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Valued Member
Canada
103 Posts |
when you have a pcgs cross grade, the coin is always in the pcgs holder, with the other grading co.'s cert referencing the pcgs cert number. PCGS will not grade through the plastic of another company's holder. At least, I've never seen them do it. (Other than to give a preliminary estimate so that you can decide if it's worth cracking it out of the other company's holder...but still, the final grading is done with the coin raw).
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1353 Posts |
http://www.victoriancent.com2011 & 2025 Fred Bowman Literary Award Winner, 2020 J. Douglas Ferguson Award Winner, & 2022 Paul Fiocca Award Winner. Life Member of RCNA.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
650 Posts |
great reference thanks I just got a DP1 haven`t looked at it yet.
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Replies: 11 / Views: 1,715 |
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Posted 08/09/2011 04:27 am
