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This Coin Is A Proof. How Do We Know...?

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United States
224 Posts
 Posted 11/27/2006  8:19 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add TypeMaster to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Mainly as a rhetorical question, the photos here are of a coin that the seller is saying is a Proof 61.

Is there a definite way of determining that a coin this old and doesn't come in a mint package is truly a proof coin?

This-Coin-Is-A-Proof.--How-Do-We-Know...??

This-Coin-Is-A-Proof.--How-Do-We-Know...??
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 11/27/2006  8:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I should think not, from a photo alone. I would imagine records exist of die markers for every proof ever minted, though. Just about every coin minted has had its' own obsessive specialist at some point down through the years.
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United States
224 Posts
 Posted 11/27/2006  9:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeMaster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SuperDave

I should think not, from a photo alone. I would imagine records exist of die markers for every proof ever minted, though. Just about every coin minted has had its' own obsessive specialist at some point down through the years.



I agree, but with so many of these coins available on ebay as proofs and I am looking to build a US long type set in proof only (as far as I can go) I have never opted to purchase one from the auctions that stated proof without verified documentation.

The only pre 1879 proofs on ebay or any other auction site that I will ever purchase are those in NGC / PCGS slabs, but this is not what I really want to accomplish. My dream type set is a Dansco US Type Set album filled with proofs (circulated proofs are ok) and then along with that I would have a victorian leather file filled with the documentation. Hopefully some of those papers will be very old as I collect ephemera also.

Slabs just don't do it for me! Actually I have been reduced to creating my own documentation (post 1879) by utilizing hi-res photography of the coin in the slab and then creating a paper trail on the coin in .pdf format and having the selling dealer sign the documentation and having the documentation notarized. This is quite the hassle.

I am rather annoyed at dealers on ebay saying a coin is a proof and not referencing the documentation that would back up their claims. There needs to be some sort of ebay regulation of this.

I also don't adhere to even a well known dealer saying a coin is a proof without the docs to back it up.

Ok..... rant over.... (TypeMaster is now taking a deep breath)!
Edited by TypeMaster
11/28/2006 3:10 pm
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Toblerone2's Avatar
United States
67 Posts
 Posted 11/28/2006  1:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Toblerone2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by TypeMaster
I agree, but with so many of these coins available on ebay as proofs and I am looking to build a US long type set in proof only (as far as I can go) I have never opted to purchase one from the auctions that stated proof without verified documentation.....



Here's a picture of the real McCoy for ya....
http://www.coinfacts.com/silver_dol...r_dollar.htm

Now - do you really think that there should be a lot of these on ebay, when only 300-600 were made? Compare that to 293,000 business strikes, I'm betting this isn't a proof. Not an expert tho, just a skeptic!
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 Posted 11/28/2006  3:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeMaster to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Toblerone2

quote:
Originally posted by TypeMaster
I agree, but with so many of these coins available on ebay as proofs and I am looking to build a US long type set in proof only (as far as I can go) I have never opted to purchase one from the auctions that stated proof without verified documentation.....



Here's a picture of the real McCoy for ya....
http://www.coinfacts.com/silver_dol...r_dollar.htm

Now - do you really think that there should be a lot of these on ebay, when only 300-600 were made? Compare that to 293,000 business strikes, I'm betting this isn't a proof. Not an expert tho, just a skeptic!




My point exactly.

No I do not think there should be a lot of these on any auction site considering their rarity. However, I just did a search under Seated halves for proofs and found 13 available today.

Considering that proofs can many times be less expensive than their counterpart MS business strikes it makes them appealing to me as a collector.

I have to wonder how many of these "proofs" are ever identified as fraudulent after the sale, and even if the buyer suspects the coin is not a proof, how can it be verified. Certainly not just by looking at the coin especially on the early type coins.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 11/28/2006  3:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
ebay is determined to maximize their income, and to that end they are compromising the degree to which they're willing to control the quality of the sellers using their service. I suppose the accurate argument can be made that to do otherwise would be contrary to their insistence that they're merely a venue. That is, of course, a copout, but that's their story and they're sticking to it.

You are obviously too perceptive to be taken by the typical ebay coin scammer, but there are actually a few good dealers left there, individuals who can back their claims with due diligence. I understand your desire for documentation, as that would add a unique aspect to the collection. There may, however, be cases in which price and availability prohibit such a thing, and you will then be at the mercy of the dealer's veracity. Any seller worth their salt will cheerfully share their attribution process with you regarding a potential purchase. Such information would be a matter of public record, hidden somewhere in a book at worst, and easily verifiable.

My point here is to suggest that you maintain an open mind to the possibility of a real rip on ebay. It does still happen. You might have read elsewhere in this forum about the Zerbe Die 1921 Morgan I submitted to NGC through Bryan's auspices - that coin was part of a lot which paid for itself on resale, and my only investment in the Zerbe coin (coming back MS63PL and deserving of DPL IMO) is the grading fee.

I sincerely doubt that's the case with the coin pictured here, though.
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Bryan1315's Avatar
United States
14454 Posts
 Posted 11/28/2006  6:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bryan1315 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
SuperDave I need you to email me your physical address when you get the chance because usually everything that has been sent from NGC to me has usually arrived in the 3rd day (including the day they sent it) so it should be here tomorrow. I can't wait to see these coins to see if I am happy or disappointed with the NCS service
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