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 Replies: 18 / Views: 2,839 |
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Valued Member
United States
455 Posts |
I'd like to learn more about how fair asking prices are determined for gold coins. A buyer of gold coins should expect to pay the melt value plus a percentage over melt depending on the condition, scarcity, and demand for the coin. Does anyone know of a price guide for gold coins that lists their fair premium over melt?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
751 Posts |
You kind of lost me. Do you have in mind modern bullion coins or are you really speaking of gold coins? I have never seen gold coin prices broken down in terms of intrinsic and collector value as you have implied. In fact for classic gold coin prices, numismatic premium behaves more like a multiplicative factor than an additive one. For bullion prices, additive (such as "$40 over melt") may be appropriate. As for price guides, the standard answer is that the best indicator of "market prices" is the Market. Heritage, ebay, and on-line bullion sellers (such as APMEX) are the best places to search. For printed price guides, nothing is better than the CDN "greysheet". No one here seems to buy more gold than our Belgian friend. Perhaps he will provide a more satisfactory answer. |
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Valued Member
 United States
455 Posts |
Say for example gold is at $650 and ounce and the fair asking price for a 1900 AU $10 eagle is $1000, and the melt value is $314. I was wondering if there's a price list that would capture the premiums of $686 or 218%.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
Yes, I know of a coin dealer that sells gold coins by that way. He would sell them like spot price + 10% to 25% or something like that.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2365 Posts |
I really don't think that the term "melt" is what you're asking. Generally, gold coins are not bought or sold that way, atleast not in my realm. You buy at spot and add whatever numismastic value is attached for rare coins, etc (if any). For example, if I were to walk into a dealer today I would pay whatever the current, up to the minute, spot price and then like gxseries said, I would then pay whatever "premium" over spot the dealer charges. Sometimes it's a percentage and sometimes a fixed $ over spot. Heritage is good as well as most collector pricing guides. Dealers will give "grey sheet" pricing. I hope that this makes sense and atleast partially answers your question. Buying coins versus gold commodities/trades, etc. are different. In the 1900 example, you would be expected to pay retail/grey sheet/collector value and not necessarily "spot". You would never pay less than current spot price for an ounce of gold, bars/bullion or coins or it would be a great deal and an ignorant seller.
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Pillar Of The Community
3147 Posts |
The only time I hear "melt" or "spot" prices mentioned in this neck of the woods is with bullion gold and silver. The old classics are NOT bullion and should not be treated as such. Made long ago and gone forever, their value should be treated as any antique and based on supply and demand. While we are all aware of gold prices the value of the classics has always exceeded gold prices. One must remember you are NOT just buying gold, you are buying history and a collectable. When the time comes to sell will you be selling bullion or history and a collectable? The classics and modern day bullion should not even be mentioned in the same sentence as the classics do not rise and fall with daily spot prices. I have never seen a dealer refer to spot prices when dealing with classic gold nor will they base their price on daily spot prices. You will see them use the Grey Sheet bid and buy list! While I am fully aware that all gold's value is tied to the daily market I would shy away from a dealer attempting to use daily spot prices plus this, that or the other when pricing classic gold coins.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2365 Posts |
I totally agree crystalk...you just put it more eloquently than I. Your using the word "classics" and "antique" is what I was trying to say and not very well at that! As usual, perfectly said Terry! Thanks!
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Valued Member
United States
455 Posts |
This morning I was looking at double eagles selling for $650-$665 and eagles for $325-$330 which works out to buying gold below the cost of bullion coins trading at a 5% premium. I read an article last month about all the money going into gold buffaloes could cut the premium above spot on the more ordinary classic pieces. This creates an opportunity for anyone who would rather hold classic gold coins instead of modern gold bullion pieces.
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
I believe ageka would give you a different case on what is happening in Europe.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseriesMy numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htmRegularly updated at least once a month. |
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Valued Member
United States
455 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
Usually dealers would just give a rough estimate of what their coins are priced at. They most likely will not sell it to you at that price and will adjust the price accordingly with the reasoning that the metal prices are violatible.
If you are interesting in buying, why not. Email Harlan and see if he is will to see it to you at that price. Would be nice if he really did honor that price but I doubt it.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseriesMy numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htmRegularly updated at least once a month. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2365 Posts |
The only thing that you might be "missing" is what is said in crystalks post...you cannot use "melt" or current gold/bullion prices for classic coins. Look at collectors values for older coins. A NEW 1/2 ounce gold coin ie: ML, etc. will be priced at gold/bullion prices with a small dealer premium unless the coin is made specifically for collectors such as the U.S. Buffalo (low mintage). Again, I may not have said this correctly and may just be adding to your confusion (I hope not).
Based on some brief searching the coin in question appears to be priced within reason for an 1880 $10 Eagle but, then again, grade comes into play also.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
751 Posts |
Sounds like an excellent deal to me, TSmith. If the dealer only has $250 in the coin, he may sell it to you for $320, irrespective of spot. This goes back to what a number of us have said: gold coins (and bullion coins struck specifically for collectors) have a loose correlation to the spot price of the metal.
On the other hand, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the dealer wrote back that he can't sell it at that price due to "market conditions." Such a disclaimer is present in practically all printed advertisements.
The lower the grade of a gold coin, the closer to bullion it behaves. Unless you're talking about a rare date, that's probably VF (could even be XF) and below for the eagles and double eagles. Ageka has previously said that in Europe almost all gold coins trade within a narrow spread of spot, but I have not seen the same phenomenon in the US.
BTW, look at $1 and $2-1/2 gold; these coins trade at very large premiums to melt. So if you're looking to get the most classic gold for the least money, I suspect you're looking in the right place--$10 and $20 Libs in EF/AU.
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Valued Member
United States
455 Posts |
Thank you all for your comments and sharing of knowledge. I'm concluding that current market conditions have discounted some classic gold coin prices that are on par with modern bullion pieces selling for 5.5% premiums over spot. With spot gold at approx. $640 classic coins such as eagles selling around $330 and double eagles selling around $655 are available to collectors with the coin's historical and collectible value discounted to near 0. I think this trend will carry on as long as folks like us continue to opt for pieces like Gold Buffaloes, Maple Leafs, Modern Eagles, etc.
Great forum!!
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
2078 Posts |
I am late in seeing this topic due to work and Greenwhich + 1 timezone I have a full 10 page word document as a reference I contructed the last 5 years and which I keep updating weekly for reference Some references Double Eagle Coronet 1904 MS63 23-24% over the melt price of that day ( For other years I make a ratio of the price I find on internet sites ) Double Eagle St Gaudens 1908 and 1925 MS63 34-35 % over melt 100 French Francs Napoleons 1858 10-30% MS 63 100 FF Napoleons laureated 1867 10-40% MS 63 100 FF Angel 1912 10-40 % MS 63 Early 40 French Francs AU 58 50-70% Early 20 FF 20-30 % AU 58 Pre 1806 20 FF anywhere from 100 to 200 % over melt high XF-AU Now in the bottomfishing and best buy categories 1852 Louis Napoleon Bonaparte AU 58 3% below melt 1877 Willem III 10 Florin MS63 15% below melt 1882 20 Lire Umberto I AU58 3% below melt 1897 Wilhelmina 10 Florin MS65 at melt In the modern categories 5$ 1987 constitution proof 11% below melt 5$ Nike 1988 proof 19% below melt 175 Candolar 1992 proof 14% below melt 1975 10 Rubel Chervonetz proof 10% below melt 1965 King Baudouin 20% below melt I reverse the situation There is no fair asking price only a fair bidding price and the fair bidding price depends very much on what the second bidder is bidding and also very much on where the coin is for sale For instance this MS63 (in my opinion) 100 FF Laureated Napoleon 1867 which is now about 11% over melt but which is offered on the Austrian ebay may well go for 11-20% over melt whereas if offered on the French ebay may go 30-40% over melt ( and in a TPG coffin may go 70-90 % over melt ) All the prices I quoted would require 3 months hunting and a lot of patience http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...94&rd=1&rd=1 |
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
2078 Posts |
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Replies: 18 / Views: 2,839 |
Posted 12/05/2006 4:26 pm
