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mishap-coins's Avatar
United States
344 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2006  09:44 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add mishap-coins to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Speaking of TPG companies !

Interesting this TPG we all know has had a squeak or two of their own with the Federal Trade Commission.


The Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) is a third-party appraisal service for grading rare coins. It determines the condition and authenticity of each coin it grades to provide consumers with an independent knowledgeable rating on which to judge the coin. It was founded in 1986, and is located in Newport Beach, CA.

On August 17, 1990 the FTC issued a press release regarding PCGS. "FTC CHARGES COIN CERTIFICATION CO. MISREPRESENTS OBJECTIVITY OF ITS COIN GRADING SERVICES; COMPANY AGREES TO SETTLEMENT" The FTC charged that "PCGS misled consumers by falsely claiming that it provides consistent, objective grading of coins and that investment in PCGS-certified rare coins eliminates all the risk associated with the grading of coins." PCGS/David Hall was charged and placed on probation for 2 years. Civil Action No. 90-1982, https://www.ftc.gov, New York Times, 8/17/90 The Wall Street Journal, 8/17/1990

In 2003 Coin World conducted an investigation of PCGS, NGC and ANACS, three of the leading grading services. In this investigation, several coins were sent to each grading service. In not one single case did the grading services agree on the grade of any given coin, and in some cases the difference in grading was seven points off. It is standard in U.S. numismatics to grade coins on a point-scale from 1 (poor) to 70 (perfect).




It makes one wonder when the man from heritage has made millions from cracking slabs and having coins regraded and slabbed. Makes one think he knew something others didn't and that it could be possibly that alot of these coins were under graded on purpose knowing they could be later bought back cracked out and re-graded for huge profits. It isn't impossible.

Makes one think it is Like the fox gaurding the hen coup isn't it ?


Quote from article By Ed Kiersh :"Though Heritage Rare Coin Galleries' James L. Halperin has made millions of dollars playing the crack-out game, novices shouldn't even think about this gambit until they become astute at grading premium-quality coins".



FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: July 20, 1989


FTC FILES CHARGES AGAINST COIN CERTIFICATON CO. AND COIN
WHOLESALER; COMPANIES TO PAY CONSUMER REDRESS


The Federal Trade Commission has announced that Numismatic
Certification Institute (NCI), and its principals, Steve Ivy and
James Halperin
, have agreed to settle FTC charges that NCI's
representations and failures to disclose information misled
consumers as to the value of coins certified by NCI. NCI's
affiliate, Heritage Capital Corporation (Heritage), also agreed
to settle charges that Heritage provided substantial assistance
to a coin retailer, Certified Rare Coin Galleries Inc. (CRCG),
knowing that CRCG was misrepresenting the security and profit
potential of its coins to investors. Under the settlement, the
companies and two individuals agreed to a permanent injunction,
and Heritage and NCI agreed to contribute $1.2 million into a
consumer redress plan for CRCG's customers.

Under the consent decree, NCI, Heritage, Ivy and Halperin
are prohibited from knowingly and substantially assisting any
third party in misrepresenting to consumers information that
would influence their decision to purchase coins. They are also
prohibited from disseminating grading certificates likely to
mislead consumers regarding any fact material to the consumers'
decision to purchase coins. Further, the corporate defendants
have agreed to establish the redress fund.

(FTC File No. 882-3208)


(Civil Action No. 89-1383 CIV-NESBITT)



On the Federal Trade commissions site I looked under search for coin grading companies and these are the results on this link , http://search.ftc.gov/query.html?qt...ies&col=news
Edited by mishap-coins
12/16/2006 09:58 am
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snowman's Avatar
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 Posted 12/16/2006  11:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add snowman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Do you know where to find a copy of that Coin World article? I know there are several anecdotal stories of TGP inconsitencies, but I have yet to read one with a substantial enough sample size to make it statistically significant. I don't doubt that coin grading is subjective and that the current system encourages resubmission to attain higher grades, I'm just curious about the the degree of inconsistency.
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Metalman's Avatar
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7123 Posts
 Posted 12/16/2006  11:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Metalman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hi Snowman

Although far from scientific,, the number of resubmissions is mind numbing,, and the number of changing grades is something not even the TPG's could give an answer for within their own companies let alone industry wide.



Rick



Edited by Metalman
12/16/2006 11:41 am
Valued Member
seth's Avatar
United States
143 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2006  10:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seth to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Metalman
Although far from scientific,, the number of resubmissions is mind numbing,, and the number of changing grades is something not even the TPG's could give an answer for within their own companies let alone industry wide.



If this is true, and I do not doubt it, the populations are TOTALLY WORTHLESS, right? The coin coming back either got the same grade or higher (probably not lower). So there is no way of knowing which population report(s) is(are) thrown off at that point.
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Morgan Fred's Avatar
United States
2684 Posts
 Posted 12/23/2006  10:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Morgan Fred to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Seth, it would depend on the coin and the separation in value between one grade and the next one up or down. If there's not much difference in grades, there's isn't much incentive to crack out and resubmit a coin hoping for a higher grade. In this respect, the population reports would give a reasonable estimate of the numbers of coins in each grade.

However, as Rick said, the numbers of resubmissions is mind-boggling for coins where the differences in value from one grade to the next is significant. In this respect, the population reports for higher grades have no value at all. However, for the very highest grades where only a few (say, less than ten) specimens are known, the numbers need to be treated very carefully and almost on a per coin basis.

You can take to the bank the presumption where a particular coin has a stated population in the hundreds or thousands for MS-65, but only a couple dozen for MS-66 that a huge proportion of those MS-65s are resubmissions.

Fred
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mishap-coins's Avatar
United States
344 Posts
 Posted 12/26/2006  4:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mishap-coins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This posting by The Federal Trade Commission back in april 1991 they warned the (ICTA)Industry Council for Tangible Assets to help clean up the coin market. http://www.ftc.gov/opa/predawn/F93/rarecoinf3.txt

If you notice at the top thread about Steve Ivy and
James Halperin you will notice if you go to ICTA's site you will see they are both board members. Like the Fox protecting the chicken coup.
And they were warned before the two were caught and they remain on the board it makes a person wonder the integrity of the ICTA. Being a layman it all just strikes a chord by the appearence of the coin market being filled with alot of deception and games.
I will always enjoy collecting coins in the raw though the slab game isn't for me, it has become to much like lottery. To many varibles.

When is it a crime? If you knowingly misrepresent that a coin is a particular grade and the coin has been graded in accordance with current industry standards. Like some of the third party graders. Seems more people should file complaints to the ftc because ebay won't help as much in the long haul.







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mishap-coins's Avatar
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344 Posts
 Posted 12/28/2006  01:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mishap-coins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
COLLECTORS UNIVERSE, INC. d/b/a Professional Coin Grading Service ("PCGS") is a Delaware corporation with its headquarters located in the State of California were R. Steven Ivy and James L. Halperin are or were substantial shareholders. These guys are very busy !
Edited by mishap-coins
12/30/2006 12:10 pm
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scoutjim99's Avatar
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4589 Posts
 Posted 12/28/2006  02:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add scoutjim99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well If It is all true, I say a Big Tall tree and a short piece of rope is the fix...
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Guido's Avatar
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390 Posts
 Posted 12/31/2006  12:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Guido to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Something the TPG's should do is photograph each coin and keep it in a database. With the computer technology today, they should be able to do a comparison scan to see if they have graded that coin before. I think coins are like fingerprints (especially anything below a 69 grade). Everyone will be diffent. If the FBI can find fingerprints this way, then why can't the TPG's? If they could figure out a way to do this, then the integrity of the population reports would be much higher. But, their profit margins would take a severe hit, so I doubt it will ever happen.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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23522 Posts
 Posted 12/31/2006  01:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Guido

Something the TPG's should do is photograph each coin and keep it in a database. With the computer technology today, they should be able to do a comparison scan to see if they have graded that coin before. I think coins are like fingerprints (especially anything below a 69 grade). Everyone will be diffent. If the FBI can find fingerprints this way, then why can't the TPG's? If they could figure out a way to do this, then the integrity of the population reports would be much higher. But, their profit margins would take a severe hit, so I doubt it will ever happen.



I've been harping on this for a while now. The technology exists to just such a thing, in a production environment, but nobody's willing to step forward and make it happen.
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Ferret Lord's Avatar
United States
218 Posts
 Posted 12/31/2006  02:16 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ferret Lord to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by SuperDave


I've been harping on this for a while now. The technology exists to just such a thing, in a production environment, but nobody's willing to step forward and make it happen.



With the technology available to read a coins defects and direction of the grain in the metal and everything, why doesn't someone use that technology to make a computerized grading company. all the graders would have to do is identify things like color. it would probably be more accurate the 99% of graders out there.

Send in your coin and they scan it for any off details and depending on strike and wear, they can determine to grade.


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Ferret Lord's Avatar
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218 Posts
 Posted 12/31/2006  02:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ferret Lord to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
it could probably verify die varieties and fakes too
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Guido's Avatar
United States
390 Posts
 Posted 12/31/2006  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Guido to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I guess it would take some reputable person in the coin collecting community to spearhead this, but it may come down to someone willing to take a chance on doing this. I would be all for it and contribute in anyway I could. The current system needs to be improved on. Especially with all the resubmissions going on. That needs to be controlled better.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 12/31/2006  9:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
Originally posted by Ferret Lord

quote:
Originally posted by SuperDave


I've been harping on this for a while now. The technology exists to just such a thing, in a production environment, but nobody's willing to step forward and make it happen.



With the technology available to read a coins defects and direction of the grain in the metal and everything, why doesn't someone use that technology to make a computerized grading company. all the graders would have to do is identify things like color. it would probably be more accurate the 99% of graders out there.

Send in your coin and they scan it for any off details and depending on strike and wear, they can determine to grade.






I already even own the domain for the company. Anybody know where I can get some venture capital?
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Metalman's Avatar
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 Posted 12/31/2006  10:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Metalman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If they can do retinal ID's and Bio Pay ,, the simplicity of scanning a coin for detail is at least 5 year old technology perhaps more.



Rick
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 Posted 12/31/2006  10:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nohope587 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Using Multi beam sonar I can find a 1/4 inch telephone cable in 2 miles of water so mapping a coins surface is child's play. All it needs is for someone to write the software that defines each grade. I doubt it will happen any time soon as I personally think people will consider a machine incapable of determining a coins appearance/beauty as well as just its technical grade.
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