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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5674 Posts |
Quote:
Is ff22134 the same seller? Definitely not the same seller. The seller of the original coin was a legit seller. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4469 Posts |
There are two VAM's with the 1901 narrow shoulder C3 reverse. VAM 1 and VAM 18 use the C3 reverse. The VAM 18 has a tilted date that does not match the OP coin. All other VAM's on the 1901 have the C4 wide eagle shoulder space. There are some 1901 VAM's that have a mixture of C4 and C3, but those VAM's have the wide eagle shoulder spacing. VAM world does not have a photo of the VAM 1 reverse. I found a PCGS MS60 1901 C3 reverse without the tilted date, so it has to be the VAM 1. Here are the photo comparisons below with the C3 reverse and the OP coin. Note the VAM 1 does have a closed 9 on the obverse. The 9 is closed on the PCGS example. I am leaning that the OP coin is a counterfeit, but it is not a one look counterfeit. The OP coin has soft details, The OP coin appears to have a open 9 on the date. Some of the OP coin details are not a perfect match to the 1901 PCGS C3 reverse. The OP coin is with the green background. Make you own decision if the OP is a counterfeit or not.   Edited by Slider23
12/28/2024 3:01 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5674 Posts |
@Slider23, thanks for the comparison images. I was unable to find a VAM-1 photo for comparison—it looks like the date position is spot on, although I agree it looks like the coin in question has an open 9. The soft details might be related to slight wear and a poorly focused image. That being said, I wouldn't be shocked if this was a counterfeit of a high value date, but it would be tough to make that call based on those photos.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
It is a one look fake. The proportions of the design are not correct in the OP's coin.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4469 Posts |
@zurie, note the spacing from leaf to stem and berry in the blue circle area. This is one of the details that put me on the counterfeit side.  Quote:
The proportions of the design are not correct in the OP's coin. @NS, can you expand on your proportion comment? |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
2282 Posts |
I'm very glad to see that Numismatic Student noticed right away as well.  You realize when you know how to think, it empowers you far beyond those who know only what to think.
-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5674 Posts |
@Slider23, you might be right, but it could be circulation flattening compared to the mint state coin, or maybe some die wear. My point is that it's a tough call.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
Look at the earlobe of liberty.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
Obverse stars are too large and are not evenly spaced apart, particularly on the left side. Stars 5 & 6 are particularly close together.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts |
Boy this is a tough one for me.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
In reverse, the eagle's head is too large, the neck is too short and the body is too fat.
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4469 Posts |
Quote:
In reverse, the eagle's head is too large, the neck is too short and the body is too fat. From these images I understand what you are seeing. Thanks for sharing. |
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Moderator
 United States
189053 Posts |
Quote: Thankful I don't collect Morgan dollars.   Interesting discussion though. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3327 Posts |
I've read the comments on this coin but still can't call it an unqualified counterfeit based on the original images. The date shape and location, definition in the hair, star location and appearance, etc., aren't inconsistent with other circulated 1901 Morgans. Many of the observations noted could be attributed to either fuzzy photos or wear. As was suggested upthread, I think this is a 1901-O that has had the mint mark filed. If we want to identify a matching variety, we should probably look at the O-mint versions even though the photos will make attribution difficult. There appears to be tooling on the obverse and there are other anomalies such as some holes in the neck area. But these things are not necessarily indicative of a counterfeit. I've seen too many similar (and worse) oddities on genuine Morgans.
I appreciate those who have laid out their reasoning for questioning the authenticity of this Morgan. I wish the others who have questioned it would give us their thoughts, too. I am not insisting that this is a genuine coin, but I haven't seen enough unquestionable evidence to definitively call it a counterfeit. We need these "smoking guns" to build our expertise when shopping for coins.
"Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
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Posted 12/28/2024 2:59 pm
