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Cashless Sweden And Coin Collecting

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Germany
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 Posted 10/03/2016  09:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add redlock to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Money is also a "store of value" and cash allows you to operate independently of banks.


Exactly. That's why Germans still love cash. The trust in our government and our banks is on an all time low (still not as low as in the USA).
But our friends in the North do not feel the need to store value in cash and also need to operate independently of banks.
They simply trust their governments and their banks. Hence, there is much smaller need for cash.
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PacoMartin's Avatar
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 Posted 10/03/2016  12:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Trusting your bank is a little different than trusting your government. Banks in the USA are not guaranteed against failure, and even if you rely on the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC)it may take some time to for your money to come in.

One measure of "store of value" is the percent of "narrow money" kept in currency. Values for 2015 except as noted.
3.17% Sweden
4.38% United Kingdom (for 2014)
6.71% South Africa
9.78% Canada
12.23% Korea
13.58% Switzerland
15.96% Japan
16.77% Euro area
17.35% Saudi Arabia
23.53% Australia
23.95% Singapore
29.67% Hong Kong SAR
33.65% Turkey
36.97% Mexico
45.28% United States
51.47% Russia
67.43% Brazil
67.68% India

This metric highlights how the USA is even very different from the Euro area and more like a third world nation.

As usual the foreign holdings of US dollars do skew the results.
Edited by PacoMartin
10/03/2016 12:08 pm
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 Posted 10/03/2016  12:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This continues to be a fascinating thread. I am glad we are getting participation from around the globe.

PacoMartin is definitely stimulating the numbers nerd in me.
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 Posted 10/03/2016  2:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well the big question is will Sweden's experiment be copied by other countries? Consider that Sweden is essentially at about the same value of currency circulating as they had in 1988.

In 19888 USA had $215 billion in banknotes and coins in circulation. Today, the USA has $218 billion in small banknotes ($1-$20) in circulation. Personally, I would like to see just some inkling of restraint, even if it was to limit the circulation of the new color c-note to $1 trillion.

The Euro Zone passed €1 trillion sum of banknotes and coins in November of 2017, and while the €500 banknote has decreased by 10% in 8 months since the announcement that it was being phased out, the overall value of banknotes has increased. So they are simply being replaced with smaller denominations.

The Japanese Yen banknotes and coin in circulation are worth 103 trillion yen worth $1 trillion. Of course, the government is relenting to pressure and increasing production of new banknotes. The value of 10,000JPY~£76. Whil the UK is circulating four £50 notes per capita, Japan is circulating over seventy 10,000JPY notes per capita.

Edited by PacoMartin
10/03/2016 10:05 pm
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 Posted 10/04/2016  06:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was thinking about the serial numbers on the banknotes. It seems that there are 50 million possibilities for any given year. Now Sweden considers production quantities of banknotes to be a state secret but perhaps we can make a guess.

Circulation figures in millions of banknotes for end of August 2016
20 kr : 47.8 million banknotes
50 kr : 18.8 million banknotes
100 kr : 54.6 million banknotes
200 kr : 25.1 million banknotes
500 kr : 79.2 million banknotes
1,000 kr: 2.7 million banknotes
TOTAL : 228.2 million banknotes

It looks like they ordered 50 million 20kr banknotes and are circulating all of them. Perhaps they only ordered 20 million 50kr banknotes as they are not as popular. It's anyone's guess as to how many 1000kr banknotes they ordered. Perhaps the Riksbank ordered 20 million and is sitting on them in case of a panic or real estate bubble burst.

So that would make 150 million banknotes ordered. Assuming they are going to follow through on this production then we can assume that they ordered 50 million apiece of the 100kr and 500kr banknotes

So my guess would be

20 kr : 50 million banknotes= 1 Billion SEK
50 kr : 20 million banknotes= 1 Billion SEK
100 kr : 50 million banknotes= 5 Billion SEK
200 kr : 50 million banknotes= 10 Billion SEK
500 kr : 50 million banknotes= 25 Billion SEK
1,000 kr: 3 million banknotes= 3 Billion SEK
TOTAL : 223 million banknotes = 45 billion SEK.

That's my guess as to what their goal for final numbers. That would give them a backup 17 billion SEK in case the pro-cash political groups gain some headway with the government.

Edited by PacoMartin
10/04/2016 1:36 pm
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 Posted 10/04/2016  2:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add redlock to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting analysis.
But I think your numbers for the 20kr and the 100kr are too low; the number for the 50kr also seems to be too low. I think Riksbank ordered 20-25% more notes than are in circulation. Production of banknotes takes time and it's good to have some reserves (even in Sweden).
The UK ordered 440 Million new Fiver, 330 Million (old) were in circulation; Australia ordered 170 Million new $5 notes, 161 Million were in circulation.
So I guess it's more likely 60-65 Million new 20kr and 100 kr notes, and 25-30 Million new 50kr.
The 200kr is hard to guess because it's a new denomination. But I agree with your estimates for the 200kr (and the 500kr) notes.

The figures for the 1000kr? Well, that's a really tough one. My guess: 3-5 Million.
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 Posted 10/05/2016  03:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's difficult to guess. I don't know if anyone keeps track of series of Swedish notes that are released. All I had to go on was the fact that there are only 50 million serial numbers possible for a single year. It occurred to me that may be a common order (50 million notes for one denomination). I think every single central bank except Sweden puts their production quantities in reports.

I do think you may be correct that central banks find it cheaper to order way more banknotes than they need, even if it takes years to work them all into circulation. About three years ago Iceland ordered 4 million 10,000ISK banknotes, which was 94% of the value of all the banknotes of all denominations that were circulating the previous year. After two years they had not even circulated half of them.

USA of course is very different as they can barely keep the printing presses running fast enough. The BEP publishes extensive monthly notes about production. So far there are $656.64 billion in color 2009A $100 notes produced over a 5 year period. There is also $144 billion in 2009 series, and another $14.08 billion in 2013 notes, but they had some serious issues with manufacturing quality, and I am not sure how many have been released into circulation. I know that they won't do it, but I had the idea that it might be better for the dollar if they stop at $1 trillion worth of color $100 banknotes. Many world leaders are growing resentful.

As I said earlier, Swedes still pull out 150 billion SEK out of ATMs averaging 1000SEK per withdrawal (domestic cards only). Even if that is all 500kr banknotes that is still a minimum of 300 million banknotes that must pass through ATMs in the course of a year. That may be difficult to do if you circulate only 50 million notes of that denomination. I don't know how much maximum withdrawal amounts vary from location to location.

The $800 withdrawal limit is fairly common in the USA, simply because many of the older machines cannot handle more than 40 banknotes per withdrawal (40*$20=$800). But some banks let you do that more than one time per day. The use of the $50 banknote in ATMs is only now starting to catch on.

Circulation figures in millions of banknotes for end of August 2016
20 kr :47.8 million banknotes ~ .956 billion SEK
50 kr :18.8 million banknotes ~ .942 billion SEK
100 kr :54.6 million banknotes ~ 5.463 billion SEK
200 kr :25.1 million banknotes ~ 5.021 billion SEK
500 kr :79.2 million banknotes ~ 39.586 billion SEK
1,000 kr:2.7 million banknotes ~ 2.672 billion SEK
TOTAL :228.2 million banknotes ~ 54.640 billion SEK


Edited by PacoMartin
10/05/2016 04:59 am
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 Posted 10/07/2016  01:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
http://www.cnbc.com/2013/10/10/cash...-a-year.html
A new study by Tufts University, The Cost of Cash in the United States, puts that price tag at about $200 billion a year. This figure includes $55 billion in higher costs to businesses, $43 billion for U.S. households and $101 billion in missed tax revenue because of off-the books transactions. For the average American family, the cost of cash is about $1,739 a year. The authors characterize their estimates as conservative.


I wonder what the cost of cash is in Sweden? If Sweden has 3% of the population of USA than 3% of $200 billion is 6 billion USD or about 50 billion SEK. But with much less cash to deal with let's assume the rate is much lower, so perhaps half as much or 25 billion SEK in a year.

As I understand it Sweden is still enjoying house price growth of 25% year over year. In any bubble a small number of people will make out like bandits. Some people are going to sell property at record highs when the inevitable market correction occurs. What will happen to those people? Will they they invest in foreign currency, will they buy antiques, or will they simply leave money in the bank.

Sep 30, 2016 (final numbers before new 100 and 500 kr banknotes issued)

Millions of notes
Valid : Denom
48.3 : 20 kr new
18.9 : 50 kr new
52.1 : 100 kr old
26.0 : 200 kr new
77.6 : 500 kr old
2.8 : 1,000 kr new
225.7 : TOTAL

There were 114.4 million 500 SEK banknotes in circulation at the end of 2014 and 99.6 million at end of 2015. So now 9 months later they are down to 77.6 million. Maybe it is not so preposterous that they only produced 50 million of the new ones.


Edited by PacoMartin
10/07/2016 01:10 am
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redlock's Avatar
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 Posted 10/07/2016  05:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add redlock to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The authors of the study are obviously paid by bank and credit card companies and/or other anti-cash parties...
Edited by redlock
10/07/2016 05:16 am
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 Posted 10/07/2016  08:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The authors of the study are obviously paid by bank and credit card companies and/or other anti-cash parties...


That may be true, but that doesn't mean there is nothing sensible in the conclusion. The reality is that the USA BEP produced 7000 metric tons of banknotes and probably destroyed a similar amount. About 35% of that total was the $1 banknote and another 27% was the $20.

Four decades ago, the government tried to reduce costs by making a $1 coin, but silly pandering to a whiny public meant that US is the only developed nation in the world to not have a coin on this value level.

In the 29.3 years since 20 June 1987 and the Canadians began circulating the "loonie" or Canadian dollar coin which was patterned to be the same size (except for thickness) as the USA Susan B. Anthony dollar coin the US Bureau of Engraving and Printing has produced 100,000 metric tons of dollar bills. All those bills have to be transported in secure trucks, distributed and collected for review and destruction at a terrible environmental cost relative to their usefulness to society.


But the time for a widespread $1 coin has come and gone.The government should have an anonymous electronic currency with very limited spending ability just to avoid the cost of small change.
Edited by PacoMartin
10/07/2016 10:43 am
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 Posted 10/07/2016  9:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lironl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for all the replies about the Swedish currency and culture. You're right, I don't live in Sweden so don't know what's going on there on a day to day basis.

Does anyone know whether the reason that the Swedish 1000 Kr note has dropped in circulation so dramatically is due to a falloff in demand from banks and their customers, or because the government is deliberately reducing supply, and not just because of falling demand?

In comparison, the Reserve Bank of Australia issues banknotes to meet demand. Demand goes up at some times during the year (e.g. around Christmas) and down at others (e.g. January and Februry). The amount of cash in circulation can drop by 5% between December and February, and 6-10% for some denominations of banknotes, but over the rest of the year, it makes up for this drop and then some.


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 Posted 10/08/2016  01:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Does anyone know whether the reason that the Swedish 1000 Kr note has dropped in circulation so dramatically is due to a falloff in demand from banks and their customers, or because the government is deliberately reducing supply, and not just because of falling demand?In comparison, the Reserve Bank of Australia issues banknotes to meet demand.


Every central bank in the world states that they produce enough cash to meet demand. Politically it is a very safe statement to make.

But then the Riksbank publish articles that make statements like: Between 2000 and 2004, this unexplained cash demand has remained relatively constant at between 63 and 67 percent of the total currency in circulation
http://www.riksbank.se/Upload/Dokum...07/wp204.pdf

The conclusion of this report is that 63% and 67% of the cash in circulation in Sweden goes into the "shadow economy".

Since 9 July 2014 Sweden has been charging commercial banks when they deposit funds in their accounts at the Riksbank overnight. From 18 Dec 2013 to 8 July 2014 they held cash for free, and previous to that they used to pay interest to the commercial banks. This change has made handling cash for banks to be even more expensive than normal. Cash is usually a money losing operation for banks because it is so costly to count and store and defend against bank robbers.

So the deposit rate is set by the Swedish central bank to meet certain monetary policy goals (like controlling interest rates), but then the banks in Sweden are motivated to reduce their reliance on cash. You can see how little they keep in the banks relative to other countries. Keep in mind that it is not just a smaller percentage, but the country has also greatly reduced the absolute value of cash circulating in the country.

Percent of Banknotes and coins held in banks
Year	Sweden	Aust.	USA	Japan
2011	8.1%	14.0%	6.7%	10.2%
2012	7.8%	13.8%	6.8%	9.4%
2013	3.9%	13.3%	6.6%	10.5%
2014	4.3%	12.0%	6.6%	10.3%
2015	2.6%	10.9%	5.9%	9.7%
The banks are even more motivated to develop stuff like the very popular phone app, SWISH, which makes transfers of money from private bank account to private bank account very easy. Now they are developing "contactless cards" that will permit Swedes to make purchase of up to 200kr without entering in a Personal Identification Number.

It makes it much easier for an individual to reduce dependence on cash.

So it is not "supply and demand" like people prefer oatmeal cookies instead of chocolate chip cookies, so the store needs to stock more oatmeal cookies. It is more of a feedback loop where government policies influence the bank procedures which influences behavior of citizens which influences the amount of cash in everyday usage.

So at present exchange rates
100AUD= 655SEK
Change in value of banknotes and coin from 2012-2015 in circulation
-24.3%	SEK		21.3%	AUD
-80.4%	SEK 1000	32.0%	AUD 100
-12.1%	SEK 500		17.0%	AUD 50
-14.1%	SEK 100		-0.7%	AUD 20
-10.8%	SEK 50		9.1%	AUD 10
+06.2%	SEK 20		9.7%	AUD 5


Sweden posted on their government tourist website that the Riksbank was predicting that cash would be reduced by 20%-50% in the eight years from 2012-2020. Well they went down 24% in only three years, and the reduction has been over 10% in the first 9 months of 2016.

So the questions that remain is how far will they go before they stop? Will there be a backlash from conservative pro-cash groups in Sweden? What if there is a real estate crash in Stockholm? Both the real estate and the currency in Sweden shows up on lists as overvalued.

Almost everything in economics has an upside and a downside. I think that calling economics the "dismal science" is appropriate.

The loss of most cash bring a huge amount of efficiency to business and to people's lives and it allows much more control of illegal activities. But what happens when the business cycle changes?

Exactly how many 1000kr banknotes are stored away in the e central bank in case of emergency. But once they are out of the vaults of the central bank, they will probably stay in circulation for decades.

Is any country going to copy Sweden's lead. Norway seems the most likely. I thought that the British might diminish the number of £50 banknotes, but instead they increased the rate of circulation by a record amount last year.
Edited by PacoMartin
10/08/2016 03:32 am
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redlock's Avatar
Germany
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 Posted 10/08/2016  04:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add redlock to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:

the fact that there are only 50 million serial numbers possible for a single year.


Uh, don't understand that. There are nine digits on the new Swedish banknotes. That's more than 50.000.000 possible numbers. What am I missing?
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PacoMartin's Avatar
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 Posted 10/08/2016  06:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There are nine digits on the new Swedish banknotes. That's more than 50.000.000 possible numbers. What am I missing?


Banknote numbers: The letters indicate the year in which the banknote was printed. A = 2013, B = 2014 etc. The two first digits indicate where on the printing sheet the banknote was printed. The final seven digits are a serial number.

I thought there were six digits in the serial number, not seven. That means there are 500 million possibilities (not 50 million). I humbly apologize for that mistake (tail between legs).
----------------------------------
http://www.atmmarketplace.com/blogs...ure-of-cash/
Too big to die?: Debating the future of cash
Sept. 28, 2016 | by Mike Lee

Debates like the one are pointless and distracting. Of course, cash can't be abolished.

The real question that Sweden is asking is can cash be limited in any way without damaging the economy?

The Euro area had a population of 306 million in the year 2000, and they had €380 billion equivalent in national banknotes which dropped to €270 billion by the end of 2001 as they prepared for the changeover. Although 15 million people were added as seven small nations joined the Euro zone, banknotes in circulation exceeded €500 billion by March of 2005, €1093 billion by Aug 2016.

Sweden is willing to admit that cash is a vital part of the economy, but they might be able to function with cash at close to 1% of GDP instead of 10%.
Edited by PacoMartin
10/08/2016 06:32 am
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Australia
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 Posted 10/08/2016  11:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add lironl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Since 9 July 2014 Sweden has been charging commercial banks when they deposit funds in their accounts at the Riksbank overnight. From 18 Dec 2013 to 8 July 2014 they held cash for free, and previous to that they used to pay interest to the commercial banks. This change has made handling cash for banks to be even more expensive than normal. Cash is usually a money losing operation for banks because it is so costly to count and store and defend against bank robbers.


It's my understanding that banks deposit a certain proportion of their accountholders' deposits with the central bank (the Riksbank in Sweden) and it doesn't matter whether these deposits come from cash or electronic deposits. Banks also deposit any excess cash with the central bank or obtain any extra cash from them. It could be notes and coins (e.g. Sweden) or notes only (e.g. Australia).

Are you saying that the Riksbank had different policies for deposits of cash from banks vs non cash deposits? Did they have any policies regarding banks obtaining cash that discouraged them from obtaining cash?
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