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 Replies: 73 / Views: 10,681 |
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Pillar of the Community
 Canada
9865 Posts |
Have you tried local jewellery stores that buy gold and silver for XRF machines.
I live on the edge of nowhere and even here the local jeweler has a XRF.
Says it's well worth the money he paid,.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
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Valued Member
 Canada
235 Posts |
fwiw: I used to work for a Trader, and went through literally tons of Gold & Silver scrap. You develop a certain eye for what looks "right", and what doesn't. This coin didn't look "right" in the PCGS holder. It was broken-out, some vintage Care was used, and the color became richer, as the original skin came off. If this coin was Bronze, it would have pinked. It yellowed.
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Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts |
Never thought of it, but I'll ask. There are a couple of high-end stores in the local mall. From what I saw, Se was right under Cu, and that was a very surprisingly high number. All others: Zn-Pb-Sn-Fe(?) made-up a small handful of %.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
955 Posts |
Well after reading this thread all I have to say is,
"gotta" get Turner's publications
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5591 Posts |
As I mentioned earlier in this thread, there is a person right here on this forum, and is a moderator, who has, in the past, XRF'd coins for members here.... all you had to do was send it to him. He is also the co-author of the March 2012 CNJ research study on 1859 brass cents, along with Rob Turner, Jaime F, and I. Of the more than 600 coins ('58 & '59)that we ended up studying (during and after the study), not a single one had even a trace of selenium. Besides Cu, Zn, and Sn, there were sometimes traces of Pb, Fe, Ni, or Bi. In the study, the "mean" results for all the coins was: CU 94.31, Zn 0.90, Sn 4.14, and Pb 0.16. Send an PM or email to SPP and see if he'll test it .. all you have to do is mail it and it's tested in a lab, not a junkyard.
As I also said earlier in this thread, we tested 30-40 coins that looked "yellow" and none were even close to brass. There are dozens of household cleaners that turn Vicky large cents a brassy-yellow color and can be found under almost every kitchen sink in the US and Canada. "Yellow" is NOT an indicator that a '59 is brass ... an XRF will actually show it.
Edited by okiecoiner
05/12/2019 07:46 am
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Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts |
Okie, I'm in No-IM Jail. I can't contact anyone.
Actually, I am pretty close friends with someone who wrote "The Kitchen Magician's Guide to Better Coins Through Chemistry". Knowing that information, it's easy to spot coins that have been Oven-Cleanered (in PCGS and NGC holders!), CLRed, etc. No 'Kitchen' solvents were used. As I stated before: it had its Original Skin when I bought it encased in a PCGS Shield holder, as AU58. Under the film the coin is yellow. Care didn't turn it that color. There is a wicked amount of Selenium in it. That would explain the yellow. Any other hypothesis about Solventing can be dismissed.
Edited by whatdowehavehere
05/12/2019 08:53 am
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Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts |
Okie, I'll listen: What solvents would turn a lustrous Bronze coin yellow, and not interfere with luster?
The place I sent to is a Scrap Yard, colloquially, not a "junk yard". Perhaps I should have stated that it was a Metal Technologies firm
Edited by whatdowehavehere
05/12/2019 09:19 am
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5591 Posts |
Once you get to 50 posts, you can PM or email... or maybe you can contact the moderator and explain your situation. SPP is in Eastern Ontario.
And, for some reason, your "post" count seems to be stuck on 25 or 26 ... it's not increasing as you post more. Try to talk to a moderator or maybe one will join in now that this discussion is growing whiskers.
I'm done trying to justify my opinion (and eyes) that says that any number of household cleaners will turn '58's and '59's a yellowish tint. I'm just trying to help you have an XRF test to show what the chemical composition really is. You MAY have a brass cent but, after looking at 10's of thousands of '59's over the last 30 years, the odds are not likely.
Edited by okiecoiner
05/12/2019 09:11 am
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Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts |
Okie, I'm VERY interested in the solvents that you know that can do that. I'm not aware of any that can turn a coin a yellow that cannot be removed by brushing, or Care, etc. The big advantage that I have over everyone else here, is that I have the coin in hand. The scans were done with a white background; under a black background the coin has yellow tones, but the paper looks dark gray, so the color of the coin is changed as well.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5591 Posts |
I don't have a specific "name" of the solvents that can do it, but I will guess that anything that contains chlorine (as in bleach or bleach-containing liquids) or phosphate compounds or any other compound that has free electrons in the compound. I've seen many many yellowish Vicky cents and have used bleach or a bleach-containing cleanser to make 1859 cents yellow to make golf-ball markers .. then you polish them to take away the dullness. Also a brass cleaner named Brasso will do the same thing to bronze. I have no idea what the cotton is impregnated with in Brasso.
Yes, I can see that your coin has some yellow tints to it, but that doesn't make it brass. All I'm trying to do is get you to send the coin in for an actual XRF. I am NOT criticizing you or doubting your word .. it's just that guessing from afar isn't going to prove or disprove your hypothesis .. you need to send it in.
Edited by okiecoiner
05/12/2019 1:51 pm
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Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts |
Okie, I fully understand that. Taking your advice, I now have an XRF option about 75mi from here; a coin dealer neighbor sees him often enough so that he will take it there. I didn't tell him anything (and he's "Canada-blind"), so I expect an honest answer.
I expect to hear back from the American Brass Company tomorrow. You mentioned that a person involved with the 600+ Penny Test has a Brass example, independent of that test. Do you have its alloy? No one (and I mean NGC and PCGS) has the info, or is not willing to share what they know...
Edited by whatdowehavehere
05/12/2019 2:23 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
5591 Posts |
The person who posted the photo of it in this thread was part of the study, but I think that the element %'s got lost somewhere along the way. It was thought to be Cu85 and Zn 15, but the written info has been lost. There are examples at the currency museum in Ottawa. There are folks who have cert'd supposed "brass" cents that don't want to crack them out and have them XRF'd to tell definitely what the percentages are. The XRF that I have recommended to you is a laboratory set-up, not a hand-held portable model that might be in a coin shop.
Edited by okiecoiner
05/12/2019 2:37 pm
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Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts |
Well, we know that my example is not a Cu/Zn-Sn Brass, as there are only traces of Zinc & Tin. Selenium, I'm guessing, that because it's so close to Copper on the Periodic Table, not as much is needed to effect a color change? The Brass examples no one knows, it seems... there is the distinct possibility that they could contain X-amounts of Selenium. So, alloys of the Brass cent are all conjecture at this point?
Edited by whatdowehavehere
05/12/2019 3:25 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
9865 Posts |
Does not likely contain any significant percentage of selenium, more likely the "gun" up the street needs calibration.
"Dipping" is not considered cleaning...
-from PCGS website
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Valued Member
Canada
235 Posts |
Which brings me right around to my opening question: Does anyone know what is the bonafide alloy of any of the 1859 Brass Cents?
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Replies: 73 / Views: 10,681 |
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Posted 05/10/2019 11:40 pm
