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Very Disappointing Experience On My First Major (Near $7k) Auction Purchase - Advice Needed!

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NJcoppers's Avatar
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 Posted 11/22/2024  10:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NJcoppers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Forget about what the contract says about provenance. Misrepresentation voids any contract.

If HA (as a proxy) stated the incorrect provenance as part of the coin's listing - and you can prove otherwise (cracker same as seller) - that is a misrepresentation, period.



I think it's worth at least a try to contact HA and see what they say. They can confirm (I am sure they will not disclose it to me) if the HA seller of my coin was the same HA buyer who won on the Aug 2024 auction this same coin.

Before I do that I would like to ask for some grade opinions on the coin I bought.

Would like to ask the Moderator(s), if I should post in the appropriate grading sub-forum asking for grading inputs or just continue in this thread? I know many of the people who may opine are already in this thread, but I think in the proper sub-forum (i.e. US Classic Colonial and Grading) may get more responses as far as grading opinions.
Edited by NJcoppers
11/22/2024 10:49 pm
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Brandmeister's Avatar
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6542 Posts
 Posted 11/22/2024  10:55 pm  Show Profile   Check Brandmeister's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Brandmeister to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
In the interest of full disclosure, it would be great if they did. But given the degree of variance, I can see why they might not, especially if it would impact their buyer's premium, and moreso if there was any uncertainty in the conclusion.

That is a textbook conflict of interest.
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NJcoppers's Avatar
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 Posted 11/22/2024  11:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NJcoppers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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Your coin posted doesn't look like ms61 either. But I have to ask, do you want the coin? Do you think the price is fair? Are you happy with the price/look?

If yes then buy it and don't worry about the old grades.

If the answer is no, don't buy it and we are done.


I asked the moderators about posting a grading opinion request in the appropriate "US Classical and Colonial Grading" sub-forum. Will see what they say.

I think the price I paid, based on the coin's appearance and other coins between AU55-MS63 I reviewed, is fair. Is it an MS-61? In the realm of 237 year old colonial New Jersey coppers, TPGs seem to give a lot more leeway compared to early 20th century Morgan silver dollars.


Quote:
I don't think it's Heritages fault, they sold a coin at a specific grade, you made the bids.


I posted the relevant HA "Term and Conditions" and they are clear about that they do not have anything to do with slabbed grading, that is something to bring up with the TPGs .

I did not say HA's fault they sold a coin at a specific grade. Do you think that if the coin may be over-graded is that HA's or the seller's fault? I did not say that either. What I am saying is that the coin's true provenance was not disclosed, it was missing vital details. Details that the seller would know 100% if he was the buyer in Aug and was also the seller in the Nov auction. Details that HA should have known considering that both the Aug and the Nov auctions were HA auctions.

I am not a lawyer...and cars are not coins...but provenance is a major integral part of many higher value coins:

In the case of cars: "As is" means is that the seller is not liable if something breaks after you buy it, since there is no warranty. But they still must disclose everything wrong with the car that they know about at the time of the sale. If they did not disclose something material, then that is fraud or misrepresentation. One-owner car vs multiple prior owners, repairs after unreported accident, etc. all have a material impact on the value of the car.
Edited by NJcoppers
11/22/2024 11:33 pm
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joe_77's Avatar
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 Posted 11/23/2024  04:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joe_77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
But I have to ask, do you want the coin? Do you think the price is fair? Are you happy with the price/look?


This is the main point in my opinion. Do you want to return it? If so just ask HA to cancel bid and move on! I would not spin it as a legal dispute about responsibilities, just explain that you discovered that the coin was sold previously at a much lower grade and this info was regrettably was not written in the description. I believe HA will cancel the bid without any fuss. If they cancel bids for "buyer remorse" I can't imagine them making trouble for your objectively much better reasons.

If you want to keep the coin then you can just let them know to make them aware.. they will probably thank you. Trying to get some sort of compensation from them (in form of credit for future sales or maybe BP waiving) might be a much more difficult route but maybe not outside the realm of possibilities?

Edited by joe_77
11/23/2024 04:11 am
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 11/23/2024  08:43 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Take it with a grain of salt because I don't own a single U.S. colonial, graded or otherwise any more, but my eyesight is still pretty decent, and I am pretty sure I see some good whacks to the high points of that coin that make me wonder how it could have gotten an AU.

The experts here can tell me I'm all wet, and I wouldn't have a problem with that, but for AU I'd like more eye appeal (yes, I get it that die condition is also a contributor ... but I don;t like the dings on top of that).

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Zurie's Avatar
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5675 Posts
 Posted 11/23/2024  10:10 am  Show Profile   Check Zurie's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If HA gives you the option of canceling the sale because of inadequate disclosure, I would probably do that. The price might be reasonable for that coin, but I would always have some regret that I could have bought the exact same coin in a different holder last year at a much lower price. Plus, it seems like it was an impulse purchase rather than one that was well-researched and considered. And the price takes a lot away from potential future appreciation.
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NJcoppers's Avatar
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 Posted 11/23/2024  11:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NJcoppers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like there are 3 total MS-61BN for the M-62-q variety:


First: In "The Donald G Partrick Collection":

The New Jersey "WM" Hidden Copper - Whitman-5350, Maris 62-q - NGC MS 61 BN
https://www.ngccoin.com/gallery/partrick/130325/



Second: The Bushnell-Parmelee specimen Listed on page 50 of the 2004 Guide Book.(#509)

NGC Cert # 597901-006. Sold 18 Aug 2004 on Heritage Auctions https://coins.ha.com/itm/colonials/...t=1&x=0&y=0#



Third: and the one I bought.

Sold 20 Nov 2024. NGC Cert # 8211786-007
https://coins.ha.com/itm/colonials/...yBids-101116


Here they are side by side:

Very-Disappointing-Experience-On-My-First-Major-Near-$7k-Auction-Purchase---Advice-Needed!
Edited by NJcoppers
11/23/2024 12:04 pm
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NJcoppers's Avatar
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 Posted 11/26/2024  6:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NJcoppers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Thank you for your detailed email and for sharing your concerns regarding your recent purchase. We appreciate the time you've taken to outline the issues, which helps us better understand your perspective.

Your email has been forwarded to our US coins department for their review. They will follow up with you directly to address your questions and concerns. Given the depth of the information provided, we kindly ask for your patience as they thoroughly review the details to ensure a comprehensive response.

If there's anything else you'd like to add or if you have further questions in the meantime, please don't hesitate to let us know.

Thank you for your understanding.

Kind Regards,

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX (removed) | Client Services


Heritage replied, asked to stand by. I was not asking for bid cancelation, just for clarity what was supposed to have been disclosed in the description and who is responsible for its accuracy as it does affect the coin's perceived value.

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Coinfrog's Avatar
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 Posted 11/26/2024  6:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Following this with great interest.
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NJcoppers's Avatar
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 Posted 11/26/2024  7:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NJcoppers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Found (the most?) recent sale for the The Donald G Partrick NGC MS-61BN (the left MS-61coin above) on 17 Mar 2021 at Heritage: https://coins.ha.com/itm/colonials/...1330-15104.s

The provenance in this auction description:]
Ex: Frederick B. Taylor (Bowers & Merena, 3/1987), lot 2258; Donald G. Partrick.


The NGC verification link. It was encapsulated by NGC on 8 Jul 2020:
https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/5746978-020/61/


This same coin (99% sure) was sold as an AU back in The Frederick B. Taylor Collection, March 26-28, 1987 at the Bowers/Merena auction, and this same sale from 1987 was referenced by the SHI on page 448 as #3 right below the only two known (as of 2013) 62-q GEMs.

So, in this auction in 2020, they did disclose the provenance as well, but not that it also was an AU coin. Assuming, it was an unslabbed AU coin. I do not see any way to confirm that 1987 sale since the Bowers archives only seem to go back to 1999. Short of the actual Bowers/Merena hard copy sales catalog from March 26-28,1987, (which itself seems to be a collectible item already), cannot confirm 100%.

So maybe my coin with its not so complete provenance description is something that quite frequently happens, and seems to be the case more often then not.


Very-Disappointing-Experience-On-My-First-Major-Near-$7k-Auction-Purchase---Advice-Needed!
Edited by NJcoppers
11/26/2024 7:52 pm
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 Posted 12/01/2024  6:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Hunter611 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The experience of purchasing this coin and the later discovery of the provenance chain, imo, has created a feeling and thinking of being "wronged", and that usually doesn't settle in the future. If the option to cancel your bid is offered and taken, that may leave you with a cleaner slate.

It really boils down to what you can comfortably live with.

Just a thought.
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NJcoppers's Avatar
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 Posted 12/01/2024  7:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NJcoppers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@Hunter611 Thank you for your input. I am o board with your thinking Yes, there is a balance between feeling "wronged" and the responsibility to live up to the agreed upon terms of the auction (even if not read with a fine tooth comb) . No doubt that it can leave a bad taste in the mouth while owning this coin into the future.

As this point, my sense of responsibility to pay is stronger than feeling "wronged". And the more I am researching and educating myself on this variety, the more I am feeling at peace with the purchase. I have until 4 Dec to pay HA in order to remain in good standing. HA Customer Service told me last week to standby as their "Coins section" looks into my "well-detailed" concerns about the incomplete provenance. If I do not hear back by 3 Dec, I will pay anyway. The rationale: the more I looked into this variety's top known (to me) specimens, the more I am at peace. Of course, I am very curious what they will say!


Of the only known existing GEMs in any TPG for the 62-q "hidden WM" variety are: one MS63 PCGS and three MS61s. The 2013 SHI reference book for the 62-q lists only two GEMs, and 5ea AUs...no exact grades cited for either. One of these two GEMs in the SHI book on pg 448 is the "Bushnell-Parmelee specimen". I traced back this coin to one of the three current MS61s, and last sold for $6,670 in Aug 2024. The other GEM on SHI pg 448, called the "Anton" GEM, I was not able to trace. But I wonder, if this coin is the PCGS MS-63BN which I was also not able to trace?

I also managed to trace back from the currently known only three MS61s that one other was also an AU grade in its prior life before slabbed by NGC in as MS61, like mine. A sale on that was $9000 in Mar 2021 and it was the "Donald G Partrick" (ex. Taylor 1987, Lot 2258) AU coin listed on pg 448 of the SHI book in 2013. So all three currently known MS-61s in this variety are accounted for: two of them crossed from AU into MS61, and one was a GEM in the first place.

Interestingly, the SHI has a 440 pages supplement that just came out this year to their 2013 original reference book. "It is not merely a second edition of the authors' previous book; rather, it contains original and largely updated condition census information for every New Jersey copper variety, with many never-before-seen photographs."

https://colonialcoins.org/c4-publications-2/



Very-Disappointing-Experience-On-My-First-Major-Near-$7k-Auction-Purchase---Advice-Needed!
Edited by NJcoppers
12/01/2024 7:50 pm
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NJcoppers's Avatar
United States
184 Posts
 Posted 12/01/2024  9:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NJcoppers to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Found (the most?) recent sale for the The Donald G Partrick NGC MS-61BN (the left MS-61coin above) on 17 Mar 2021 at Heritage: https://coins.ha.com/itm/colonials/.1330-15104.s

The provenance in this auction description:]
Ex: Frederick B. Taylor (Bowers & Merena, 3/1987), lot 2258; Donald G. Partrick.


The NGC verification link. It was encapsulated by NGC on 8 Jul 2020:
https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/5746978-020/61/


This same coin (99% sure) was sold as an AU back in The Frederick B. Taylor Collection, March 26-28, 1987 at the Bowers/Merena auction, and this same sale from 1987 was referenced by the SHI on page 448 as #3 right below the only two known (as of 2013) 62-q GEMs.

So, in this auction in 2020, they did disclose the provenance as well, but not that it also was an AU coin. Assuming, it was an unslabbed AU coin. I do not see any way to confirm that 1987 sale since the Bowers archives only seem to go back to 1999. Short of the actual Bowers/Merena hard copy sales catalog from March 26-28,1987, (which itself seems to be a collectible item already), cannot confirm 100%.

So maybe my coin with its not so complete provenance description is something that quite frequently happens, and seems to be the case more often then not.



After some luck, found the results and copy of the Bowers/Merena sales catalog from March 26-28,1987. This Ex: Frederick B. Taylor (Bowers & Merena, 3/1987), lot 2258; Donald G. Partrick NGC MS-61 coin was listed as MS-63 in 1987 and sold for $2860. It must have been a raw coin, as I do not see any reference to PCGS (founded in 1986) nor NGC (founded 1987).

Of course, this is before the 1994 discovery of the hidden "WM" initials in this variety, so was listed only as a 62-q R-1 vs the R-3 today.

https://ia802805.us.archive.org/29/...0000bowe.pdf


Very-Disappointing-Experience-On-My-First-Major-Near-$7k-Auction-Purchase---Advice-Needed!
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 Posted 12/01/2024  11:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add NumismaticsFTW to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good on you for choosing to pay.
You realize when you know how to think, it empowers you far beyond those who know only what to think.

-Neil deGrasse Tyson
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joe_77's Avatar
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 Posted 12/07/2024  06:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add joe_77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hello NJcoppers! Have you heard back from HA? Very curious to know their reply!

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