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Which Is The Real 1921 Peace Dollar?

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SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 06/03/2012  2:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good deal.

I'll post my findings here when all is said and done.

Also, be double-sure to pack them nice and air tight, as we've been having some uncomfortable humidity as of late from all the nasty weather.
Edited by SteveCaruso
06/03/2012 2:49 pm
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Las_Vegas_Larry's Avatar
United States
817 Posts
 Posted 06/04/2012  10:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Las_Vegas_Larry to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A & B are in the mail to Steve.

Hopefully we'll hear from soon.

When he returns the B coin I'll get it off to PCGS.

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ratio411's Avatar
United States
1208 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2012  11:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ratio411 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great post!
I hope 'B' is real.
I think it is myself, but I am not a Peace collector.
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Las_Vegas_Larry's Avatar
United States
817 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2012  6:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Las_Vegas_Larry to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Post Office just notified me that the coins have been delivered to Steve Caruso.

We should hear from him soon.

Edited by Las_Vegas_Larry
06/06/2012 9:04 pm
Bedrock of the Community
Earle42's Avatar
United States
10038 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2012  8:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, I thought Las Vegas was trying to pull a fast one on us after that last round of overlaying pics. The OBV of B, as can be seen, does not line up. All I did was take the pics off of this site, make the one transparent, and overlay it. So if B cones up legit - what happened?

I am surprised at how well As OBV lines up for a fake - they are getting good


Here is a thread I posted not too long ago showing an overlay of a legit 1879 Morgan with a fake 1879 I own. The front of your A is a lot better than the results for my Morgans turned out.

https://goccf.com/t/119357&whichpage=1
How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
Edited by Earle42
06/06/2012 9:05 pm
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Las_Vegas_Larry's Avatar
United States
817 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2012  9:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Las_Vegas_Larry to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I don't know Earle42. Could the photos have gotten mixed up?

I haven't tried to deceive or fool anyone.

Promise, cross my heart and all that stuff.

Meanwhile lets wait for Steve's results.

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SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2012  9:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Drumroll please.... :-)


The results are in, and I'm rather surprised:

- The weight is within tolerance at 26.66 grams.
- It appears to be made of silver with the proper diamagnetic reaction and resonance.
- The strike discrepancies were simply due to the angle at which the pictures were taken plus lighting differences. (I'll post examples that show how they line up in a bit.)

The only thing that I cannot resolve as mere wear is the reeding, which still looks odd.

Taking a 20% sample section of the edge reeding, one would expect 37-39 reeds (38x5=190, so 37-39 as 20% represents ~189 +/- 5 which accounts for normal variance in a sample).

On a 20% edge sample from Coin B, I counted 42 reeds, which means that this coin has (taking into account possible error from the sample) between 205 and 215 reeds total.

All Peace dollars struck are known to have 189 reeds, with no variations as are found among series like Morgans. Differently-reeded Morgans usually exhibit fewer reeds than 189 (the "wide-reeded" varieties) but there are several examples of 193-reeded Morgans (still quite less than 205).

As a counterexample, I did a 20% cross-section of several of my genuine Peace dollars (1922-1926) and came up with (as expected) 37-39 reeds from a 20% edge sample.

Unless a 1921 variety of the had a vastly different collar that I am not aware of (and I combed all over the place) my vote is that this is a very clever, very scary forgery.

However, in the end it wouldn't hurt to get a TPG's opinion on the matter.

Illustrations to be posted later tonight. :-)
Edited by SteveCaruso
06/06/2012 9:34 pm
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Las_Vegas_Larry's Avatar
United States
817 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2012  9:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Las_Vegas_Larry to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It looks like this coin (coin B) will have to go to PCGS for the final say on this one.

Bedrock of the Community
Earle42's Avatar
United States
10038 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2012  10:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Larry, I am sorry if I sounded as if I was being negative at all. I was not meaning to imply anything except that you were having a good time kidding with us so we could see if we could ferret out the right answers.

I was kind of kicking myself I had not thought of trying a post incorporating something like this myself



Quote:
- The strike discrepancies were simply due to the angle at which the pictures were taken plus lighting differences. (I'll post examples that show how they line up in a bit.)

This is a good thing to know. I was wondering how I could have messed this up.

I was careful to make dead sure the pics did not get mixed up, but I also know I have sometimes been mixed up enough to mix anything/everything up no matter how careful I am.

Where is Spock when you need him?

BTW - speaking of messing things up. I SWORE I already entered a similar post - but it is not showing up on my screen - so if this is a double post - we will know Spock is still not here helping me at present!


How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
Pillar of the Community
SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2012  10:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, later on last night has become this morning. :-) (The youngest had a nightmare.)

Anyways, here are some illustrations. The first one is a picture of a genuine 1921 Peace dollar with microscope shots from Coin B in known counterfeit problem areas superimposed upon it. The green lines also show how the two designs line up in what I originally thought was a problem area around Liberty's nose and mouth.

As you can see, there are no discrepancies besides what one would expect from normal wear and toning. It's uncanny.

Which-Is-The-Real-1921-Peace-Dollar?

(Same number and sized fruit on the branch, no problems with the date, and the "B" on Liberty's crown is as expected. You can also see, eyeballing, that the E in Liberty has the crown tine at the proper place and the 1 is the proper form -- I'll show shots of that later.)

This second image, however, outlines the reeding problem I mentioned:

Which-Is-The-Real-1921-Peace-Dollar?

There are simply far too many reeds crammed onto that edge, and they all don't quite sit on its full breadth either.

This is a real chin scratcher, so aye PCGS would be the way to go as they have many more resources and photos of this year than I have.
Edited by SteveCaruso
06/07/2012 12:36 pm
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upstate's Avatar
United States
3283 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2012  12:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add upstate to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Now that's some thorough investigative work
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United States
1590 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2012  2:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jmkendall to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
An observation and a couple of questions.

The observation is that at least one variant collar is known to have been used in the 1922 pattern proof.

The questions are; first with all the problems associated with trying to get the 1921 Peace dollar to fully strike with lower pressure, might not a different collar have been used to provide less edge volume thus allowing more metal to be available to flow up and into the less accessible areas of the die?

And Secondly since we know they were experimenting with different collars ala the 1922 Pattern Proof-High Relief ( see "A Guide Book of Peace dollars", Roger W. Burdette with Barry Lovvorn; Whitman Publishing LLC; Atlanta GA. Copyright 2008; p.171) it is possible that an experimental proof collar was used during production? Especially since we know that proof dies were used in production (ibid p.161).
Pillar of the Community
SteveCaruso's Avatar
United States
1796 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2012  3:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveCaruso to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@jmkendall - Good find! That's one more potential piece in the puzzle. Does Burdette mention how many reeds it had? I could see a different shape for the reeds (pointier like it is in Coin B so less metal is pressed outwards), but all resources I could find do not mention differences in the reed count, itself.
Pillar of the Community
United States
1590 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2012  5:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jmkendall to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
He does not give a reed count, but does show a picture of the 22 High relief proof. But I can't get a good reference to determine reed count
Valued Member
texfischer's Avatar
United States
126 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2012  6:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add texfischer to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If only 1 is real then B; if both are fake then, neither; if both are real then, A and B
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