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Daniel Carr Overstrikes - *is It Legal*

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mds308's Avatar
United States
1721 Posts
 Posted 11/25/2012  1:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mds308 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bryan1315,

Not only do I respect your opinion but I admire your passion on this topic. The coins/tokens that he produces which have commemorative dates or a reunion marking can pass the test. Coins that are direct copies of US minted coins should not be allowed.

What if an individual started printing 20 dollar bills but instead of serial numbers he used serial letters. And what if these bills were identical in every other way except the serial letters. How long before the US Secret Service shuts him down?

Last year I purchased a 1922 Grant one dollar gold coin (without star). It was in a bezel ring. I paid 465 dollars for this coin. I removed it from the bezel ring and weighed it. It was spot on. I sent it to PCGS and it came back: Questionable Authenticity. We all know what this means. Fake. It was so well done that when I showed it to three dealers, all three offered me a very fair price. I showed all three the PCGS sticker attached to the Mylar flip and nobody believed me. One dealer insisted on purchasing the coin. I decided to let it go. I hope he was honest as I was when he sold/represented this coin.

In my opinion, the coins Mr. Carr is making for the LSCC are fine. It's the 1964 Franklin, 1964 Peace dollar or other fantasy pieces that scare me. I'm a green rookie and could be easily fooled. But like they say: "If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is."
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ninamason's Avatar
United States
1227 Posts
 Posted 11/25/2012  3:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ninamason to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I can't afford Carr's pieces, so for me this is a moot point, EXCEPT for this:

I'm a young collector, in the whole scheme of things. I was born in the era of dead Presidents on coins; I was ten-almost-eleven when the first State Quarters came out and eleven-going-on-twelve when my mom took me to the Post Office because I just had to see a real actual coin with a woman on it, you guys (my feminist tendencies started early). When I saw (and purchased, for $10) my first Peace dollar, I had no idea there was an earlier design (much less several of them!) and someone putting a 1909-O Morgan in my hands for ten bucks would have gotten away with it, because what did I know?

I don't worry about foolish new rich collectors; I worry about collectors like me, who have to save up for two or three weeks to purchase a single Morgan and occasionally have to put aside the hobby to, you know, eat. We don't have the money to buy things like the Red Book, at least not right away; we buy the VG/F coins because we want pretty things and it's all we can afford. "Look!" the unscrupulous shyster with a Carr strike says: "It's an error coin, probably worth a couple of grand, but man, I need the money. I've gotta turn it over. You can have it for thirty bucks." So you give up your grocery money, that thirty dollars, expecting that you can take the coin to a dealer and get--maybe not a couple of thousand, but a couple of hundred, at least.

The dealer tells you the coin isn't worth the metal it's minted on.

Now what?
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Earle42's Avatar
United States
10044 Posts
 Posted 11/25/2012  5:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Carr's website says:

Quote:
This modern fantasy is LEGAL and is not required to carry a "COPY" stamp for the following reasons:

1) These are not copies of Capped Bust silver half dollars - they are privately over-struck on GENUINE government-issue Capped Bust silver half dollars (with lettered edge) that were originally minted from 1807-1836.
2) According to the US Treasury, no 1816 half dollars were ever released and none exist today - so this can't be a copy of one since they don't exist.
3) Defacing of US coins is legal so long as the defacement isn't for fraudulent purposes.


Why do we want more government regulation?

Its the government that issues our coins, and its the government saying actual 1816 Capped Bust half/1964D Peace Dollar/1975 Ike never circulated/do not exist. So how can the government accuse Carr of counterfeiting?

Comparing Carr to Chinese replicas:
Had the Chinese replicas only been made of coins the government says do not exist, then the Chinese fakes would have been in the same boat as Carr's. However, the Chinese were definitely trying to make fakes - even of common, actual pieces - to deceive people. Recognize that motivation is only part of it. The Chinese made replicas of actual coins the government issued/acknowledges as existing and backed by governmental authority.

Carr's fantasy coins, to me (note that), fall into the same category as the old replica-of-large-cent Hard Times tokens. The hobby currently sees these as non-government issued and collectible. Yet some of these HT token are very similar in looks to actual government-issued coins.

I have no doubt that some people down through history have been fooled by the HT tokens while thinking they were legitimate large cents. And remember at the time these were issued, that one cent was worth a lot more than today.

Comparing Carr to NORFED:
NORFED rounds are nowhere near as close looking to US coins as Carr's. No circulating US coins have had "$5,00, $10.00, $20.00." etc. on them. If someone did mistake a NORFED round for a US coin, that person would make out in the end since the rounds are worth more (silver value 1 oz) than even a Morgan or Peace dollar (which most people do not recognize as US currency anyway nowadays).

When the trial for NORFED was held, the case against NORFED was a little sly by making sure the pictures were re-sized such that NORFED rounds looked the same diameter as Mercury dimes and other US coins they were comparing them to. This aided in the "counterfeit" accusation.

The main difference I see as to why, therefore, Carr is allowed to go on, is b/c NORFED was threatening US government fiat currency. Real silver was becoming widely popular in some areas due to NORFED. BTW, I also find it interesting the NORFED OBV design was sold and is currently being minted each year, but not as widely distributed!

It is my opinion (based upon a lot of reading/interest in the case), that the government made a legal mistake with NORFED. I believe this is also why they STILL have not passed sentence on Von Nauthouse. It was a political statement and the government knows it.

Again I refer to the hard times tokens. They were not illegal and yet I think (note personal opinion) the HT tokens represented their own contemporary currency of a whole lot more than NORFED pieces compare to anything currently circulating.

If Carr's only motivation was to make a buck - good for him (but I also think he has fun with it)! I live in a system of free enterprise and am proud of it - as long as its LEGAL.

Since the price on Carr products is already high in the aftermarket, if someone in the future is "taken" by a Carr coin, they will likely be able to sell the silver fantasy coin for a lot more than the face value they took it for! If someone is taken by a Chinese replica, the non-PM value will assure they will be stuck.


How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
Edited by Earle42
11/25/2012 5:54 pm
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trdhrdr007's Avatar
United States
2335 Posts
 Posted 11/26/2012  08:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trdhrdr007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Comparing Carr to Chinese replicas:
Had the Chinese replicas only been made of coins the government says do not exist, then the Chinese fakes would have been in the same boat as Carr's. However, the Chinese were definitely trying to make fakes - even of common, actual pieces - to deceive people. Recognize that motivation is only part of it. The Chinese made replicas of actual coins the government issued/acknowledges as existing and backed by governmental authority.


Quote:
If Carr's only motivation was to make a buck - good for him (but I also think he has fun with it)! I live in a system of free enterprise and am proud of it - as long as its LEGAL.


The motivation behind the Chinese coins & Carr's coins IS to make a profit. It IS legal in China to make replica coins. It's entirely possible that some Chinese manufacturers only make copies of US coins that never existed. Even if they didn't it's not logical to make the claim that Carr's coins are legal while identical Chinese coins would be illegal.
Locked
822 Posts
 Posted 11/26/2012  09:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add scubu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
2) According to the US Treasury, no 1816 half dollars were ever released and none exist today - so this can't be a copy of one since they don't exist.


Every time I report one of these ebay remove's it pronto. So Carr's 1816 half dollars should be too. But they won't and it's no different.
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Earle42's Avatar
United States
10044 Posts
 Posted 12/05/2012  11:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It's entirely possible that some Chinese manufacturers only make copies of US coins that never existed. Even if they didn't it's not logical to make the claim that Carr's coins are legal while identical Chinese coins would be illegal.


Please read my post again and see that I put the Chinese replica makers in the same boat as Carr if they are making copies of coins the US government says do not exist. Carr's 1816 half is one of these. However, the Chinese are making replicas of coins the US government says DO exist. Carr does not. This is where they differ.

I have bought quite a few of the Chinese fakes from the largest manufacturer - both when he was selling on ebay and after he got kicked off of ebay. I did this to become educated and have posted several threads on this forum sharing the info with the CCF family. The guy had a website showing everything he made. The amount of replica coins form all over the world that he was making was unbelievable. He made replicas of rare and common coins. But the only fake I saw on his site (US & Canada only - I do not know a lot about world coins) of something the US government says does not exist was the 1964 Peace dollar. I am not saying other places did not make them, but the largest manufacturer did not have them for sale.


Quote:
Every time I report one of these ebay remove's it pronto. So Carr's 1816 half dollars should be too. But they won't and it's no different.

I assume you are specifically referring to all Chinese fakes (or am I missing something and there are fakes of 1816 halves Carr did not make)?





How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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trdhrdr007's Avatar
United States
2335 Posts
 Posted 12/06/2012  08:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trdhrdr007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Please read my post again and see that I put the Chinese replica makers in the same boat as Carr if they are making copies of coins the US government says do not exist. Carr's 1816 half is one of these. However, the Chinese are making replicas of coins the US government says DO exist. Carr does not. This is where they differ.

Quote:
Had the Chinese replicas only been made of coins the government says do not exist, then the Chinese fakes would have been in the same boat as Carr's.


I've reread your comments. The quotes listed above lead me to believe that your argument is that Chinese fantasy coins are somehow different from Carr's fantasy pieces due to the fact that many(all?) Chinese manufacturers also make unmarked replica coins. I don't buy into the idea that Carr's fantasy pieces are legally any different from fantasy pieces made by anyone else.......irregardless of any other illegal activities they may be involved in.
Edited by trdhrdr007
12/06/2012 08:06 am
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Earle42's Avatar
United States
10044 Posts
 Posted 12/06/2012  4:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry for the confusion.

I think the confusion I have caused is on definition of terms.

I use the term replica or fake when referring to a copy of a a coin the government says exists.

I use the term fantasy when I refer to a coin that the government says does not exist.

A 1964 Peace dollar - according to the government - is a fantasy coin since the government says they do not currently exist. This is one reason why I think Carr can do what he does. The legalities of making a copy of a non-existent coin is likely why the feds do not come down on him as a counterfeiter.

However, they would likely arrest someone making, for example, silver copies of a 1916D dime.

If someone made a fantasy Mercury dime dated 2012, of same size and composition as the Mercury series, I also think (note that word) the feds would see it as legal since a "real" 2012 Mercury never existed.

Chinese replicas are bogus composition so someone fooled by one gets nothing for his money.

But if a person was ever fooled by something like the Carr 1964 Peace dollar, they would have silver plus something they could sell on ebay for ~300.00 to boot.

The feds probably also take this into consideration.

By now I would think as large as Carr's work has become, even making (what was it - thousands?) of fantasy 2009 ASEs for the HSN, that the feds would have declared him a counterfeiter and shut him down if they defined his actions as being such.





How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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trdhrdr007's Avatar
United States
2335 Posts
 Posted 12/06/2012  4:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trdhrdr007 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think I might not be making my point clear. There have been many posts on this board about Chinese coins that are easily identified as fakes by collectors because they are dated in years the coin was not made. There have also been threads about Morgan dollars(& other coins) for sale on ebay with CC(& other) mint marks in years the Carson City mint wasn't minting coins. Those coins could be labeled as fantasy coins but every thread I have seen harshly criticized the manufacturer for making fakes.

Without getting into the legal issue here's my question. Why do people get up in arms because one person/group makes a copy of a coin with an obviously wrong date/mint mark yet think it's ok for Mr. Carr to do the same?
Edited by trdhrdr007
12/06/2012 4:34 pm
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Earle42's Avatar
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10044 Posts
 Posted 12/06/2012  5:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@trdhrdr
I see what you are saying. Personally, if someone makes a replica of a non-exitent coin, I don't have an issue with them. After writing that last sentence I got a chuckle. How can someone copy a non-exiyent thing?

My attraction to some of Carr's stuff has been that real ones do not exist. Ever since I was a kid, and had a dream of having a 1975 Ike dollar, I always thought it would be cool to own one. Now I (sort of, but not really) do!

Scubu

Quote:
OK, so tomorrow he starts making 2012 M (Moonlight Mint) silver eagles. You ok with it?

He made 2009 ASEs with a DC mint mark. I own one. Other collectors who had never heard of them were amazed to see it and were immediately interested since they knew none were made for that year.

I explained to them what it was. They thought it was a great way to make the collection look more complete.

I know nothing of a 2007 $20.00 bill, but am assuming none of them were made from your question.

The problem I would have with one of these is that our paper money is worth nothing. Its not inherently valuable due to its composition. But it might be illegal to do - I do not know since this would be the BEP and not the mint?

I would not want one since I do not collect currency, but there are probably those out there who would like to see it. If they were legitimately made, I have to wonder if they would always be sold at higher prices than 20.00 if they were made as a collectable. So again, anyone would be foolish to try to only get 20.00 for one. But that is a lot of "what ifs."

Actually, come to think of it, I am kind of surprised none of the private mints have ever thought of reviving some of the classic coins designs but dating them with current dates.


Hey, if they can sell glow in the dark dinosaurs on coins, I bet the classic idea would take off also.


How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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Conder101's Avatar
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17884 Posts
 Posted 12/07/2012  2:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
If someone made a fantasy Mercury dime dated 2012, of same size and composition as the Mercury series, I also think (note that word) the feds would see it as legal since a "real" 2012 Mercury never existed.

They did consider the 1923-D and 1930-D Mercury dimes as counterfeit when they were discovered. Of course they were being spent as real dimes.
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Earle42's Avatar
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10044 Posts
 Posted 12/07/2012  2:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Were these discovered in the pre-Roosevelt issue days? I am not familiar with them. This would make a great difference.

How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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Conder101's Avatar
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17884 Posts
 Posted 12/07/2012  2:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Duplicate post, my ISP keeps crashing today and then resends when it comes back up.


I believe they were discovered in the 1950's. They do still show up on ebay today from time to time. If ebay sees them they are pulled as counterfeits. If they don't see them they can sell for a nice sum.
Edited by Conder101
12/07/2012 2:55 pm
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OddCoins's Avatar
Canada
271 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2012  6:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add OddCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I still don't understand how people can call him a counterfeiter. A counterfeit coin is an unmarked copy of a real coin intended to decieve. You can't copy something that doesn't exist!
Locked
822 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2012  8:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add scubu to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You can't copy something that doesn't exist!


Oh but you most certainly can. Copies have nothing to do with existence. The Hoover dam could collapse tomorrow and cease to exist, we can certainly build a copy of it though right?
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