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 Replies: 97 / Views: 15,923 |
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Valued Member
357 Posts |
If the making of the coin is not done by a U.S. mint, then copy needs to be somewhere on the coin. Period.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5862 Posts |
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You can't copy something that doesn't exist! The problem is where you draw the line. Mr. Carr is making exact duplicates of coins that do exist and changing only the date to make them "fantasy" coins. That's a far cry from coming up with his own design from scratch. What if I made an exact duplicate of an existing coin and added my own "B" mint mark to it? Could I argue that it's not a copy since there aren't any "real" coins that have a "B" mint mark? What if I made an exact duplicate of an existing coin and purposely misspelled "LIBERTY" as "LIBRETY"? What if I made an exact duplicate of an existing coin but simply did a poor job replicating the image of liberty (too many spikes in the headdress, wrong shape of the eyes, etc.)? Where's the line between "bad counterfeit" and "fantasy coin" when you're talking about only minor changes to a real coin design? |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10044 Posts |
@scubu Quote:
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You can't copy something that doesn't exist!
Oh but you most certainly can. Copies have nothing to do with existence. The Hoover dam could collapse tomorrow and cease to exist, we can certainly build a copy of it though right?
Good point! To get across e meaning when I said it earlier should have said you cannot make a copy of something that never existed. A 2012 Mercury dime never officially was made/distributed by the US mint, therefore a copy of a real one could never be made. Someone could produce their own replica Mercury dime and put a 2012 date it. So if we take semantics to this level, it would be a replica of the Mercury design, but not a replica of an actual 2012 Mercury dime since an actual 2012 was never made. In this light, I guess this might be the way the Feds view Carr's work: They likely would not prosecute someone making a new series of Mercuries starting with 2012 and continuing on, but they obviously go after anyone in the States making 1916 D Mercs.. Carr made enough of the 2009, DC mint mark over strike Eagles that sold on the HSN that it would seem if the Feds considered it illegal, they would have gone after him. Then again, maybe b/c he is making these by over-striking legit US mint coins - not making his own planchets - the Feds also give him some room? Maybe they would prosecute someone making a 2012 Mercury dime from scratch instead of making overstrikes on legit Mercuries? Interesting to ponder... |
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Locked
822 Posts |
Quote:A 2012 Mercury dime never officially was made/distributed by the US mint, therefore a copy of a real one could never be made OK, riddle me this oh wise one with all the answers.... Mr. Carr buys an old currency press and starts cranking out some series 2005 $20 FRNs and starts selling them on ebay. Explain to me how that wold be perfectly fine. Quote:
Then again, maybe b/c he is making these by over-striking legit US mint coins - not making his own planchets - the Feds also give him some room? That's completely absurd. The old item is destroyed and shouldn't even be in the conversation at all, its completely irrelevant. Heck there's almost certainly some old beer or pet food cans in the car you're driving, when's the last time you brought that up in a conversation? Edited by scubu
12/28/2012 12:25 pm
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Valued Member
Canada
271 Posts |
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The Hoover dam could collapse tomorrow and cease to exist, we can certainly build a copy of it though right? Yes, you could. The difference is that the Hoover Dam existed. A 2012 Meurcury dime, for example, does not exist and has never existed. Therefore, you cannot make a copy of it. He can copy the DESIGN, but not the coin. A 2012 Mercury dime, that is like a real Merc in every way except for the date, is not a counterfeit. I think he has a nice little loophole with the '64 Peace dollars. The mint didn't want anyone to know that they existed, that's why they destroyed them all. If they wanted to deem his coin a counterfeit, they would have to admit that the coins existed. We don't have any proof that they do or don't. We only have speculation that they DID. |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:The difference is that the Hoover Dam existed. A 2012 Meurcury dime, for example, does not exist and has never existed. Therefore, you cannot make a copy of it. He can copy the DESIGN, but not the coin. A 2012 Mercury dime, that is like a real Merc in every way except for the date, is not a counterfeit. It doesn't have to exist. All a counterfit has to be is something not real intended to be passed off a real. We can guess all day long why or why not hes allowed to do it. The more I think about it the more I come to two conclusions. The first is hes pretty small scale probably bigger fish to fry right now, and the second is he probably still has some connections that as long as he stays in the good graces off hes off the radar. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
10625 Posts |
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All a counterfeit has to be is something not real intended to be passed off a real I think this is the key. All his works are fantasy pieces and there is no intent to deceive anyone to pass them off as real. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
Quote:A 2012 Mercury dime never officially was made/distributed by the US mint, therefore a copy of a real one could never be made. They also never made 1922 cents in Philadelphia. So it would be fine to make all the 1922 plain cents you want. Also the law does not require the items to be an exact copy to be illegal. All it requires is that they be similar. I'd say a 1964 Peace dollar is "similar" to a 1934, an 1975 Ike is "similar" to a 1974, an 1816 half dollar is "similar" to an 1815 or 1817. In fact the law also make it illegal even if the coin "is of original design". (Although for that to apply you would have to be trying to pass them as money. This is what got Nothaus.) I really don't understand all the debate on this. If you read the law it is clear, at least to me, that Carr's pieces are not legal. Quote:
Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either under the authority of the United States or under the authority of any foreign government shall be fined under this title. |
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Moderator
 United States
189340 Posts |
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All his works are fantasy pieces and there is no intent to deceive anyone to pass them off as real. Maybe not by him, but what about those who buy them? Quote:Mr. Carr buys an old currency press and starts cranking out some series 2005 $20 FRNs and starts selling them on ebay. Explain to me how that wold be perfectly fine. Perfect analogy. If anyone can justify this as acceptable, then they can win the "it is legal" argument. |
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Valued Member
Canada
271 Posts |
Is there no such thing as a 2005 $20 FRN, whatever that is? :)
The bottom line to me is that the coins do not really exist. There's also no intent to decieve. And the designs have many differences from an original. Maybe it's illegal, but the government obviously either doesn't think so or doesn't care. How long has the guy been doing this?
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Rest in Peace
United States
10625 Posts |
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Maybe not by him, but what about those who buy them?
This in my opinion does not make the overstruck whatever illegal, the act of sale with intent to deceive would be illegal (or at the very least immoral). |
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Moderator
United States
189340 Posts |
Aiding and abetting.  FRN - Federal Reserve Note. Could he sell a 2005 $20 FRN as "fantasy" with no intent to deceive? Is it legal?  Professional counterfeiters almost never spend their own product. They sell it at a huge discount for others to use. Yet, when caught, they still go to jail. Read Conder's above quote again. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3755 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1227 Posts |
I can justify printing those 2005 FRN (side note, maybe we could add this to the auto-glossary?) notes PERFECTLY!! How else am I gonna pay off my student loans with the taxes I pay?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
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the government obviously either doesn't think so or doesn't care. I would bet on doesn't care, or more likely can't be bothered. But don't confuse non-enforcement with it being legal. Just because the government knows about Carr and hasn't shut him down does not make it OK or legal. They can decide to come down on him at any time. Nothaus made and passed his Liberty dollars for almost 10 years before the government started to harass him and a couple more before they shut him down. |
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Posted 12/28/2012 09:18 am
