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 Replies: 366 / Views: 37,367 |
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Rest in Peace
Canada
1360 Posts |
Sucked into the conversation - yet again.
The coin shop guy - has overhead. He has brick and mortar building to maintain, Insurance, taxes, staff, etc, etc,.
The 'flipper' has money - lots of it, and a place to keep his inventory.
The coin shop guy buys wholesale - probably 15% below list price (or there abouts) and sells at list. He can make some deals for his clients as he wishes. He supplies his customers with all the accessories as well.
The 'flipper' buys at list, holds till sold out, and sells at a premium.
This is the part that the Mint doesn't like:
The Store owner, who paid below list, can sell off items to his cost or even below to make the sale, and keep a cash flow. He has enough stock to continue in business with his other items (accessories, coins, watches, jewelry, etc)He won't likely return anything to the mint, and if he does, it'll only be credited in either new stock or his original 'whole sale' price. (15% discount, or possibly even a restocking charge)
The 'flipper' realizing that the item he 'hoarded' isn't selling well - attempts to return unwanted goods to the mint. The mint then refunds him the full list price - and puts the item back up for sale.
This is why 'coin shops/stores' don't like 'flippers'. It isn't a fair business practice for the mint to treat their clients - long term clients - by supplying the profiteer flippers.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
590 Posts |
Quote:
But if I will go to PO and "pre-order" all 5 allocated to this place "Butterflies" - will not it eliminate the possibility from other people to buy the coin for issue price? This is more of a philosophical question: "If a hoarder buys all the coins in the post office who is to blame and does anybody really care?" Well it's a difficult question to answer and it comes down to people's opportunity to buy and your geographic location. In Toronto their actions will have no discernible impact. I say that because there are so many post offices within a small area here and the buyer has other avenues to buying coins, mainly the web, and other coin shops. I do know some people don't have access to the internet and don't have a coin shop near them, for those people it is just too bad. If the seller cared about fairness and not profits he could ration the coins. Fairness has no place in business, only profits. Greed is good. |
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Valued Member
Canada
72 Posts |
I tend to agree with Dcadon, I don't see many flippers offering deals on coins that didn't sell. Mostly they are offered at cost plus shipping for non RCM products. Panic and mass returns seem to be more common for RCM product. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
590 Posts |
@Dcadon I think many shops would like to see flippers done away with violently and with any means necessary. To that effect I say "share the wealth baby". If all the flippers suddenly died today it would be the retailers that would step up and take their place. Hoarding coins and selling for a large markup will not go away. I can think of a few "legitimate" retailers on ebay who would love to see flippers go away to make more money (Angus Coins Shop, Little Deb's). |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1581 Posts |
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I don't understand why people think the mint cares about people flipping coins they could care less they are getting rid of their products what more could they want.
In general, you're probably right. But, if dealers are phoning up and complaining about certain flipper practices, it would be foolish to think the mint doesn't care what their best individual customers are saying. Quote:
If all the flippers suddenly died today it would be the retailers that would step up and take their place. Hoarding coins and selling for a large markup will not go away.
But, would the large markup be as large? Consider that we can assume that for a hot item, the flippers got a percentage of the mintage that was highly desirable to the people who end up paying the markup. If those coins are now available to the consumer, instead of the flipper, what happens? - Those most interested, who would have missed out, get the coin at issue. - The sell-out takes longer - The overall perception of the "hotness" of the offering is significantly reduced Remember people want most what they can't get. The dealers are benefiting from the pops in prices. So, may they may be pressuring the mint to kill the flipper, but in then end it probably would work against them. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6768 Posts |
Nice to see here the same from different angles.
I think everyone will be happy, when every new item will be accessible for MC and general public for some (even short period of) time.
And after it, dealers or flippers can do their profits, contributing to the cash flows and keeping the items "hot"
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1354 Posts |
I'm not thinking the coin shops are suffering to bad..... Their prices are right along beside if not more than flippers prices. Plus they are benefiting by getting that 15% extra profit. They all advertise on ebay and their store prices fluctuate with ebay sales. They are doing way better than flippers. Plus they have access to more of the product initially from 1 source(the mint) where flippers have to work harder to get their product from multiple sources. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
590 Posts |
About three years ago I remember walking into a coin shop and the owner knew what ebay was but they did no business on ebay. I was able to buy coins in his shop and flip them for a profit on ebay. Back then many of the stores still priced from catalogs. It wasn't soon after that I saw he was pricing based on ebay prices. The first coin I remember to have a huge mark-up was the 25 cent Titanic coin. It was obvious he was basing his price off the price the coin was selling for on ebay. You have to remember it's not the flipper that sets the price, it's the buyer. Many flippers use auctions and it's those final prices that determine the fixed price of items. So you want to blame somebody for the high price of coins, it's the buyers. You go sell a ladybug coin for $200 BIN price and see how long it lasts. Sell the ladybug coin in auction and it will go to market price. |
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Rest in Peace
Canada
1360 Posts |
You do have a point there Dooby. After all, we've all seen the ridiculous prices paid for items - some still available at list price directly from the mint. Do these people only ever look for coins on ebay? example the latest butterfly "Buy it Now" $239 and it hasn't even hit the MC pages. Or, you can order it from Canada Post apparently even earlier - if you know somebody. Another topic a while ago suggested that the dealers had to maintain the RCM list price - at least until a coin had been 'sold out'. Then... it becomes the aforementioned 'sellers marked' where the buyers set the prices to the extreme. |
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Valued Member
Canada
246 Posts |
I think the problem is that the flippers don't play in the same league... If you buy to make profit on re-selling the coins on ebay for example, you act like a retail store who buy things to sell things with a profit. Profit = taxes, but I'm curious to know how much who flip declare those revenues, but a retail store has to declared everything... If I was a business and see a hoard of people doing this, maybe it can hurt the profitability of the business and even in the worst case scenario to get the door closed... I think in the short term nothing will happen... I think we see this kind of situation in "bubble" and every "bubble" as a start and an end... The only matter is we don't know when this will happen, and maybe the coin you pay the double from the start price at the mint will come back to its original price... But if you're a collector, the value is not relevant at all, only if you want to sell it... |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
981 Posts |
And as soon as you sell it your flipper!! like it or not
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Rest in Peace
Canada
1360 Posts |
Edited by Dcadon
03/19/2013 4:09 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
981 Posts |
I keep detailed records of what I buy and sell and to who I sell and yes I have reported it on my income tax every year since I have started a few years ago obviously many will say otherwise but I could careless what others think it is perfectly legal to do this so if some of you don't like it too bad the solution is easy only buy from the mint otherwise quit whining about it.
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Rest in Peace
Canada
1360 Posts |
@elkslayer said "yes I have reported it on my income tax every year since"
For that, you have climbed up a notch or two on the respectability scale! Sincerely, I am impressed, and didn't expect that answer.
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Valued Member
Canada
330 Posts |
I am a collector and have yet to sell a coin period.
However, this conversation is really getting personal when you start asking people about their tax returns and what they claim. This is personal information.
I'm sure every person has skeletons in the closet when it comes to taxes whether deemed insignificant or not. Anyone ever pay "cash price" for something? I've seen these questions asked before and really have a hard time trying to understand why people are concerned about it other than being envious of an enterprising individual.
It's really no ones business other than the person and the CCRA.
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Replies: 366 / Views: 37,367 |
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Posted 03/19/2013 12:43 pm
