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 Replies: 9 / Views: 2,292 |
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Valued Member
United States
319 Posts |
Auctiva supports AliExpress which allows the sale of blatant counterfeit coins and other counterfeit items. If you go to the Auctiva home page there is a "Wholesale" link in the footer which links to AliExpress.
I completely dumped Auctiva for this reason. I refuse to use a service that, albeit indirectly, supports counterfeit sales. I sincerely hope everyone that reads this feels the same way.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4598 Posts |
so I take it you don't buy or sell on ebay either? by any sane standard they're worse. ebay is a US company allowing the sale of counterfit coins by US sellers to US buyers within the United States. Clearly illegal. Ali is a Chinese company selling Chinese goods in China. All legal. The illegal act is the importation of those coins into the US and that's a matter between the seller and the buyer not the middleman. -----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/ |
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Valued Member
 United States
319 Posts |
Quote:so I take it you don't buy or sell on ebay either? by any sane standard they're worse. ebay is a US company allowing the sale of counterfeit coins by US sellers to US buyers within the United States. Clearly illegal. They will remove them at least if you get the right person. Quote:
Ali is a Chinese company selling Chinese goods in China. All legal. The illegal act is the importation of those coins into the US and that's a matter between the seller and the buyer not the middleman. They should not let illegal items here, ship here. They do. If you report the counterfeits they tell you they're allowed. I can't believe someone it sticking up for them. Edited by PawnS
01/20/2015 09:16 am
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Forum Dad
 United States
24192 Posts |
I won't use Auctiva. It sucks they support a Chinese company in the first place, let alone one that allows shipping of thousands upon thousands of counterfeit goods here. Not just coins either, handbags, movies, clothes, electronics, you name it. Quote:
Ali is a Chinese company selling Chinese goods in China. All legal. The illegal act is the importation of those coins into the US and that's a matter between the seller and the buyer not the middleman. Great, I'll allow their links again and join their affiliate program so I can earn some money off the sale of counterfeits. You OK with that? |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1823 Posts |
I have three words for Auctiva.
Waste of money.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4598 Posts |
As a matter of law, yes I'm OK with it. Do I like their business practices - a different question. Just like ebay, Auctiva and Ali et al are marketplaces. Much like I can't realistically expect ebay to individually review and approve all of the millions of items up for sale at any one time, I can't expect either of the others to do that too. But I can choose whom to do business with - I can see all of what they offer and exclude the small fraction of a percent that are dealing in counterfeit, questionable or ghost-shift products. I can expect the companies to follow applicable law when notified of an infringing item or seller. I don't see ebay has a sterling record on that, especially since they disbanded the oversite team. But all of those are a more nuanced judgment than a simple "ban Ali" or "ban Auctiva" or "ban China". For high volume, low dollar items, US Manufacturing can't compete with most countries. So you have no choice but to do business with them. As a practical matter, if you exclude Chinese companies, you are in a world of hurt. Where do you think the computers come from that run this site? Where do the chips that go into those computers come from? Who puts the two together? -----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/ |
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Valued Member
United States
319 Posts |
Geez, you're completely missing the point. Chinese, Japanese, Russian, Turkish... doesn't matter. They are supporting a COMPANY that is RUINING our hobby. I don't give a flying crap if it's legal or not.
Common sense (in my mind at least) says don't support a company that is contributing to ruining something you love.
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
It's all moot but for the will to enforce what's on the books, yet somehow I feel like a voice in the wilderness on this because nobody else seems to understand the hammer the hobby has just been handed to whack these people with. The modifications to the Hobby Protection Act (HPA) signed into law last month were a bill, HR2754, on their own. This bill had a name: The Collectible Coin Protection Act. That is its' official Congressional Record title. Think about that. Below I'll link the text of the additions. It is very clear under the new provisions that venues such as ebay and Auctiva may now be held legally liable for the conduct of counterfeiters selling on their sites. Further, there is specific language directed at slab forgers. C'mon, guys. We've just been handed the counterfeiter banhammer. Why aren't we celebrating? https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bi.../hr2754/text |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4598 Posts |
Even better Dave two hammers... For one, in the new law, the owner of the trademark (e.g. PCGS, NGC) can sue for violations... But also, go off and read 15 U.S. Code § 2102 - Private enforcement from the existing law! (from http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/15/2102)Quote:
(b) Coins and other numismatic items
The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, for introduction into or distribution in commerce of any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently marked "copy", is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act [15 U.S.C. 41 et seq.]. with the changes from the new law: Quote:
(a) Political items
The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, for introduction into or distribution in commerce of any imitation political item which is not plainly and permanently marked with the calendar year in which such item was manufactured, is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act [15 U.S.C. 41 et seq.].
(b) Coins and other numismatic items
The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, for introduction into or distribution in commerce , or the sale in commerce of any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently marked "copy", is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act [15 U.S.C. 41 et seq.].
(c) Rules and regulations
The Federal Trade Commission shall prescribe rules for determining the manner and form in which items described in subsection (a) or (b) of this section shall be permanently marked.
(d) Provision of assistance or support.â€"
It shall be a violation of subsection (a) or (b) for a person to provide substantial assistance or support to any manufacturer, importer, or seller if that person knows or should have known that the manufacturer, importer, or seller is engaged in any act or practice that violates subsection (a) or (b).
(d)(e) Exemption
Subsections (a) and (b)(b), and (d), and regulations under subsection (c) of this section, shall not apply to any common carrier or contract carrier or freight forwarder with respect to an imitation political item or imitation numismatic item received, shipped, delivered, or handled by it for shipment in the ordinary course of its business. Quote:
If any person violates section 2101 (a) or (b) of this title or a rule under section 2101 (c) of this title, any interested person may commence a civil action for injunctive relief restraining such violation, and for damages, in any United States District Court for a district in which the defendant resides or has an agent. In any such action, the court may award the costs of the suit, including reasonable attorneys' fees. Now combine the two... Arguably Congress could have chosen to add "or auction venue" to the new (e) to give ebay et al a safe harbor. Like ISPs have with the DMCA... but they didn't... So as the law stands, there is no minimum amount of fake sales, no safe harbor, nothing - unless you are a common carrier (USPS say) handling the shipment. But, before you start playing Thor, think about what happens... sue and ebay just shuts down the coin sales area. It's not trivial revenue for them, but it's small compared to the risk to the multiple billion dollar business. One whiff of a lawsuit and CCF shuts down BST (or adds to the moderator's burdens) because of the risk of two members trading a contemporary counterfeit (no exemption in law for those!). BST works for the small number of people here who know and trust each other. But the vast majority of our hobby - who no longer have an LCS - lose and drop away... So rather than just trot off to the courthouse, what we should be doing is getting ICTA ( http://www.ictaonline.org/) involved in talking to ebay et al and working with them to clean up their acts. In law, the best hammer is the one you never swing. -----Burton 50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973) Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983) Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/ |
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Quote:
In law, the best hammer is the one you never swing. This one won't ever have to swing in ebay's case either. They're hardly dull people, and it now becomes a legitimate business expense to not only institute a robust anti-counterfeit effort, but to crow about having done so. The new law should allow ebay to sidestep their carefully-crafted legal status as merely a venue, as it specifically names such participants. Changes the whole business landscape for them - we as collectors can become a lot more important a target demographic. A strong anti-counterfeit system will allow them to attract higher-dollar transactions, bigger margin sales for them. It'd be a reinforcing cycle, a way to consider wresting substantial share from the major auction houses. Would you sell a $500 coin on ebay if it were safe and the buying audience were there? I thought so. Don't sell ebay short. They read the law too. |
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Replies: 9 / Views: 2,292 |
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Posted 01/20/2015 09:14 am
