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 Replies: 36 / Views: 3,752 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1247 Posts |
How many different views are there as to what represents perfection in a coin? How is it possible for one collector to see, for example, a huge die crack in a coin as perfect, yet another might see it as flawed. Two perceptions of perfection that are diametrically opposed to each other. How many different views of perfection are there?
I think the perfect coin is one that is well toned even what would be called "ugly" toning. And circulated-- proof to me that the coin did what it was intended to do. And in EF-45--the grade that shows enough circulating but also enough detail. And even better than that one that has numerous die cracks in it. The ultimate being a coin struck from a split or shattered die. I have a Sol of Peru that has 17 well defined die cracks and is practically black. It's one of my favorite coins and yet I know other would see it as flawed, indeed, the dealer must have since he sold to me as scrap silver.
But now this is the beauty of the Internet. I don't believe there is or ever was one definition of perfection that was ever excepted by coin collectors. And now we can find out if that's true or not.
What is perfection to you?
Ode to Wilma:
"I am just a dreamer, but
you are just a dream..."
Like a Hurricane--Neil Young
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Valued Member
United States
187 Posts |
Wow! I guess everyone is different. I give coins 2 grades. A one equals I like it and would/will/want to buy it. A two means it is stupid looking. Don't want a nr. two.
Jerry
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Pillar Of The Community
3147 Posts |
Well you may have opened a can of bees here Longnine! Perfection, to me, is just that! A flawless coin, extremely high grade but then when it comes to my collection, well, perfection is something I dream about but will accept far less when it comes to any thing (pre-1964) to fill a hole until I can upgrade to something nicer. I can't and won't play the MS-70 game as I have NO desire to pay $100 for a graded coin when I can buy the same thing in the raw for $20. In my mind if it is PERFECT for my needs and my collection then it must be so? I guess a coin must be on my want list, be available and be affordable and with that the coin will be perfect. And, like it or not most of the old classics, both U.S. and Foreign, did circulate and were the work horses of their time and just to own and hold a piece of history can be PERFECT enough for me!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7123 Posts |
Hi Longnine
This is an interesting question !!
To define perfection based upon my collecting style,
I have several definitions !! when I add coins to my Lincoln Proof collection, those coins need to be as absolutely close to perfection, in strike ,color and detail as I can possibly obtain, same for my proof Rooseies !!
But when I add coins to my Merc collection,I want coins that are XF ti AU with no more than a couple of dings, the surfaces should be not bright but not dull, what I describe to myself as a coin that looks like it was used, but taken from a pocket after the jeans were washed and then put away in jewelry box until just before I got it !! LOL
But I also collect MS Mercs with full bands those coins need to have a bright or clear surfaces as high MS as I can afford.
But Iam also a variety ,error collector, so the more visable or unusual the better.my perfect die crack coin would be one with spoke like cracks radiating from the center to the rim (still looking for this one )
The perfect variety is one that I discovered !! This is in the works !! hopefully it turns out to be the one !!
So perfection even within a collectors collections can be different and unique.
Rick
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
You know, that's like asking like what are your preferences on the coins that one collects. One would love toned coins, some would prefer circulated coins and on the other hand, some would love blasting white coins. And even some would prefer matte proof coins over actual proof coins etc.
I used to like coins that are almost deadly uncirculated, if not proof whenever possible. But right now I have a wierd obsession over overstrike coins - don't ask why but I guess the fun part is to analyze what an underlying image of a coin could represent. Sure thing, overstruck coins DO look horribly ugly as you can never tell what it's supposed to be like at first glance.
But again it's personal opinion. If you like it, feel free to do so! :) If others don't like it, well I'm sure there are others who will appericate in what you believe on. But hey, there is nothing wrong about die cracks. In fact, I really do think it's neat :) Have you tried looking for coins that have similar die cracks? I know there are some insane collectors that try to collect similar die cracks which was struck by the same die that almost served its purposes.
My partial coin collection http://www.omnicoin.com/collection/gxseriesMy numismatics articles and collection: http://www.gxseries.com/numis/numis_index.htmRegularly updated at least once a month. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
954 Posts |
Oh my, what a thought provoking question. And a very nice follow up to the error/variety thread I might add. You have a lot of poet in you.....
Maybe there is no perfect coin, maybe we are all in pursuit, but can never quite find it. Maybe that's why after the coin is in our hand, we start to look for the next coin.
Maybe that's why I love the hunt so much. I don't believe I will ever find THE perfect coin, so I know that the hunt will never be over....that sounds perfect to me.
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
This question is very close to asking a man his concept of a perfect woman (and, of course, asking a woman her idea of a perfect man).  For every fifteen people, there will be fifteen different answers. My personal opinion is that there is no such thing as a perfect coin if the 70-point grading system is employed as a measure. Under a microscope under high enough power, every coin will reveal some flaw. (Same/same men and women.) That being said, I've seen coins which are as close to perfection as humanly and mechanically possible. I have an ASE graded MS-69 which fits this definition, albeit PCGS has graded some ASEs MS-70. I am not certain I would be able to differentiate between the two grades even if I had them both side by side. For that matter, I am not certain I would be able to differentiate ANY MS-69 coins from an MS-70 of the same type (SGS, CCGS, NNC and other non-tiered personal grading companies notwithstanding and excepted). Certainly for my level of collecting, the differences between -69 and -70 are meaningless. Perfection, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
954 Posts |
Perfect..? Perfect to me is any coin that I look at that I would like to have in my collection.
catman
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
438 Posts |
No one ever agrees with me (and this suits me fine) but here's what I call perfect (or what i'd see as perfect). A coin in high EF (enough wear to show it did it's job, but nearly all the details are there albeit a little softened in the highest places only). A coin with a good strong strike, well centred, free of any die flaws or other die related issues, no cracks, no chips. Nice clear lettering, no doubling etc. That's a prwefect strike. Tone wise most shades of grey really do it for me, especially the steel grey shades with a hint of dull steel blue. But the blue must be really subtle. The greys must highlight the devices of the coin by being darker in the recessed details of the coin and lighter in the fields. But the tone must be overall even. Not too strong as to distract from the design. Near perfection to me was this British coin I used to own (the grade was a tad lower than what i'd call the ultimate perfection, but for me that was the only dampner on an attractive coin that i'd call near perfect).   Not everyone's cup of tea, but if the hair detail on the front side of the laurels had still been there I would have never have sold it, ever. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1247 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by gxseries
Have you tried looking for coins that have similar die cracks? I know there are some insane collectors that try to collect similar die cracks which was struck by the same die that almost served its purposes.
I believe your referring to die progressions and yes I do have a few sets. They're not easy to find but they don't cost much either. These are *REALLY* great responses from everyone and I thank all of you for them. It looks like everyone really put a lot of thought into this. I'd like to stay here and babble on but I guess I better go put the shutters up.  Becky maybe I'll write poam tonight at work about Wilma?  In between the 2,000 alarms that are sure to go off. [:0] Edited by longnine009
10/23/2005 08:54 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by longnine009
What is perfection to you?
Perfection? Any and all coins that bring a profit when sold |
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Pillar Of The Community
3147 Posts |
So ND what do you call those coins, even high grade, that may lie in your shop for months and months, or possibly a year or longer, before the right collector stops in and just has to have it? When they sell, I assume for a profit, do they then become perfection? Just curious as to how you, as a dealer, look at coins that do not turn over quickly?
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
438 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by gxseries
Have you tried looking for coins that have similar die cracks? I know there are some insane collectors that try to collect similar die cracks which was struck by the same die that almost served its purposes.
US collectors that get a buzz out of that should definately take a look at British coins of the Victorian period, 1860s and 1870s specifically. As during this period most coin dies (for most gold and silver coins) had numbers put on them. (Some denominations like florins it was on the obverse, others it was on the reverse). So if you say took a shine to shillings, you could go after all the shillings of a certain date with die number 6. With gold sovereigns it gets better still as the date was on the obverse (no die number on the obverse) but the reverse dies were numbered but didn't include the date since it was on the obverse. So take 1865 coins with die number 3, if you collected all 1865 coins with die number 3 and studied them you could see how the strikes progressed. But of course 1866 might also make use of die number 3. The question is, is this the same reverse die that was used on the 1865? Or is it another die number 3 that was made for the folowing year? No research has been done on this as far as I can tell. Edited by Ętheling
10/23/2005 10:50 am
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
2078 Posts |
I have determined that for me perfection is a fluid state
with a Minimum of MS 66 to enter that state
The design however is also important
and defining an estetical desing is difficult
Currently my avatar is high on the list of perfection
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1247 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by Ętheling
quote:
Originally posted by gxseries
Have you tried looking for coins that have similar die cracks? I know there are some insane collectors that try to collect similar die cracks which was struck by the same die that almost served its purposes.
US collectors that get a buzz out of that should definately take a look at British coins of the Victorian period, 1860s and 1870s specifically. As during this period most coin dies (for most gold and silver coins) had numbers put on them. (Some denominations like florins it was on the obverse, others it was on the reverse).
So if you say took a shine to shillings, you could go after all the shillings of a certain date with die number 6.
With gold sovereigns it gets better still as the date was on the obverse (no die number on the obverse) but the reverse dies were numbered but didn't include the date since it was on the obverse.
So take 1865 coins with die number 3, if you collected all 1865 coins with die number 3 and studied them you could see how the strikes progressed. But of course 1866 might also make use of die number 3. The question is, is this the same reverse die that was used on the 1865? Or is it another die number 3 that was made for the folowing year?
No research has been done on this as far as I can tell.
That in itself could be a form of perfection. It would be something like the "frontier." Other folks might see areas that have been throughly researched and written about as perfection because there are numerous references available for them. This is the case for Morgan dollars and Lincoln cents. These are probably the two most popular series in America and there are dozens of references about each of them. But the ideal perfection to me would be an area that has been researched and long since forgotton about. Those areas aren't crowded anymore and you can still find the references as used books. This is the case with Lincoln Cent BIEs. BIEs are die breaks and cracks in the area of LIBERTY on the Lincoln Cent. Many of them were between the B and E of LIBERTY and so they were called BIEs. Collecting these was a 60's thing--sort of a "sub-culture" to collecting Lincoln cents that's been forgotten about except for a handful of collectors. But it was extensivly researched by the BIE Guild and I've found their BIE handbook on ebay a few years ago and Jean Cohen's book-(6,000 drawings) I found in Amazon's used books. BIEs are an absolute perfection to me because I like them, the information about them is still out there and few people know about them. And most who do know about them don't care about them. That leaves more for me.  |
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
438 Posts |
BIE's sound very much like an art of perfection to me. This thread has quite clearly shown that there are many forms of perfection. I have already shown two forms myself. My first response shows what I would consider the perfection of Eye Appeal. Call it the first rule of perfection, afterall we all buy coins that catch our eye! Even if they are different from person to person. The second rule of perfection is a specimen in perfect condition. This is where grade come in, UNCs all the way. Then you have the third state of perfection, coins that are historically relevant and show direct sign of the times that were around them. Holed coins could fall into a category like this if there was a particular decade where converting them to jewelry was the ultimate fashion. Fourthly we have the realm of errors, the perfect example of minting proceedures and Die Deterioration. Fifthly the forgotten and unresearched 'frontier' area, an area waiting to be researched. That's to name but a few. |
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Replies: 36 / Views: 3,752 |
Posted 10/22/2005 7:01 pm
