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 Replies: 31 / Views: 17,233 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts |
How to tell business strike cents from matte proof cents? I was thinking the rims were the clue, but I made a set of the normal Business strike wheat cents from the 1909-1916 cent from Philadelphia the era when the matte proof coins were struck. So looking at them next to the matte proof coins we can see that the rims appear to be the same? But are they? Business strikes:
Matte proof strikes.
They appear to be the same size. But the outside edge of them has a sharper edge like all proof coins. If you have tried to put 50 proof cents into a tube that holds 50/51 cents, you end up with a couple of extra ones. Because the rim are thicker. I'm not held a matte proof cent to tell for sure, but it makes sense that they would be the same as a proof cent. So we have to look at more differences on these cents. On the matte proofs they are different. How? Well what does a proof coin look like. They are struck twice and the fields are very shiny. The devices are stronger because of the double httstrike. But on the matte proof coins they are not shiny. A little dull looking compared with the business strike coins. Also seeing them side by side with BS cents, they have a lot more detail. How can you tell. Well take a look at examples from those years: I've set up the images to show the business strike example in the center and the matte proof cents on the outside edges of the coins. That way we can look at them and see the differences. The strike clarity, the matte finish on the fields.          So what is different about business strike coins and matte proof coins? The strike. The strike shows the devices very clear. The fields are dull looking, not showing a shiny finish. The outside of the rims are sharper, like other proof coins we see on other denominations.  Note the differences on the edge of the edge. On a proof nickel, it comes to a sharp edge, where as the business strike nickels are rounded over a bit. (note on the image) So I hope this helps you to train your eyes to note the differences on the matte proof cents. So why do the matte proof cents usually look color full? It is because they were left in the mint cellos to prevent getting fingerprints on them. We see the same on cents and other coins that are left in their cellos for a long time. Truly a beautiful coin. Because of the prices for these, we have to be careful buying them. The 1909 VDB MP is ten times more valuable than the 1909 without the VDB. (few of these were made) So I'll have to see what comes next. CoopHomeL Matte Proof Cents Edited by coop
11/17/2018 10:21 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5887 Posts |
Thanks! This was helpful.
Collector of U.S. Coins, Varieties, and Colonial Coinage
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3479 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5686 Posts |
Great discussion! But I think some of the labeling is reversed on your last photo of the nickels.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
9173 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
509 Posts |
Thank you coop, that rocks!
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New Member
United States
5 Posts |
Distinguishing between an EDS business strike Lincoln Cent and a matte proof can be challenging. Coop's 11/17/2018 article on this topic was very well presented and informative. I recently acquired a well struck 1909 VDB cent(see obverse image attached)exhibiting full flat rims, even an obverse Rim Fin, sharp inside and outside rim edges all around, smooth/flat outside rim face allowing to coin to readily balance on edge, and deep, flat granular fields characteristic of matte proofs. The reverse strike is equally impressive. Nevertheless, reference die scratches/diagnostics characteristic of the 1909 matte proof strike are not evident on this coin leading me conclude this is most likely a well-struck EDS business strike. Still attractive. I'll let the professionals at NGC or PCGS make the final judgement. I look forward to comments on this topic!  |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
62064 Posts |
When you view it from the strength of the beard, it is hands down the Matte proof have the stronger design, because of being struck twice.   Edited by coop
04/25/2021 3:56 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts |
So to see the difference between the two, you need to have them side by side so you eyes can see the differences of strength of the strikes:   |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts |
COOP, nice work till know. Sorry to tell you but not really finish. I look for this from a long time. your studies in my opinion it is just the begin.
Damage I sold the last propriety in state and now till summer (when I will buy a new one in Texas,) been in Canada I can not obtain no documentation from the mint.
The problem with the matte could occur in many ways. Me I thing because it is a balance of the cost of the production and stay in - OR : 1): Purge melt and Krinos cool, or 2). In the annealing.
Your studies are supper from my point of view. Question: do it is only the strike?
I could be wrong, but it is a question and a debate on topic.
Thanks
Edited by silviosi
04/25/2021 6:10 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts |
Sorry for every one.
I was to enjoy my cigar and thing I use the word "Krinos". To explain: It is come from cryogenic, which mean also treatment with a gas at a very low temperature. Example you go to the doctor and will do a ablation with a gas to burn a "polyps" for example. This is done with liquid azote which is omnipresent in our atmosphere and is very chip. In the metallurgy is use offend for different purposes.
Sorry again. ( I will deal with my wife because is mad I use technical words with out explain) 2-3 days I will call for delivery food.
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New Member
United States
5 Posts |
Thanks Coop for the quick response! We're in agreement - my coin is a business strike. Abe's whiskers, particularly along his throat, are much more prominent on the proofs. The matte proofs were struck with upwards 300 tons per square inch vs. business strikes of 60 tons per square inch! I don't know if the Lincoln Cent matte proofs were struck twice, though. I haven't seen a record for multiple strikes. Just a much higher pressure. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
62064 Posts |
Another clue is the rim. On business strike coins the rim is larger and rounded. The Matte proofs are squared.
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts |
@BrianEdgerton. I do not contradicted you but I put in question 300 tones strike. This are mean the mint prepared special collars, why? I can strike 3 time at 90 and have same result.
Please if you have this material information share with us.
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Pillar of the Community
2145 Posts |
Found this topic on CCF Search - proof or not? The consensus on the post says not proof? To me it is too hard to tell........ http://goccf.com/t/159762  Edited by Rothery
04/25/2021 8:51 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
6244 Posts |
Coop, please, maybe children question: I have a 1994P or 1997P penny. How I can say it is matte or not? just by rim? I ask because you start to studies this and for me was always a question. and the mint never explain exact.
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Replies: 31 / Views: 17,233 |
Posted 11/18/2018 02:06 am
