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How Long Until People Don't Use Coins Anymore?

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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 02/20/2019  2:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I hadn't heard of the term "demonitize" until this topic started. Does that mean the government declares that previously legal money becomes worthless?


There was quite a large scale example of this in our lifetimes: the adoption of the Euro as the common currency of much of Europe, and transition from the legacy currencies to the Euro between 1999 and 2002. During at least those three years, you could convert the old currency to Euros, and, in some instances for many years thereafter. But today you cannnot expect to pay for a baguette in Paris with a 10 franc coin. It will not be accepted.

As best I can tell, the Canadian 1 cent coin was not demonetized. Its production and distribution ceased by early 2013, but you can still use it for purchases, though vendors are not obliged to give you change to the nearest cent, only to the nearest nickel. So if a shopkeeper in Montreal charges you $1.99 for a baguette, you can indeed pay by using 4 Canadian 1 cent coins to get to that exact amount.

I would be very curious to hear the opinions of our Canadian colleagues on how eliminating their one cent coin affected life.
Edited by tdziemia
02/20/2019 2:29 pm
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PacoMartin's Avatar
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 Posted 02/20/2019  3:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The United States Mint manufactured Trade silver dollars minted from 1873 to 1885, but these were only intended to be used in Asia. AFAIK it is the only money that has ever been demonetized by the US government, and they were technically not to be used domestically. The $5,000 and $10,000 banknotes issued before WWII are still valid currency even though there is fewer than 700 pieces left in both denominations. Their collector value is considerably higher than face value. There are several thousand $500 and $1000 banknotes left, and every year a small number get turned into the central bank to be destroyed.

Canada also does not demonetize by policy, so the 1-cent coin is still worth something in Canada. But a vender is not required to accept money, even if it is legal tender. So if you want to buy something for CAD$0.20 and you want to pay with a handful of pennies, the seller is not obligated to accept that payment.


It is very common in Latin America and Africa to remove zeros from the currency. The old style Mexican peso had three zeros removed in 1993. So new banknotes were printed up with three zeros missing (a 20,000 old peso banknote was replaced with a 20 new peso banknote). The new banknotes had the same portrait and color scheme as the old banknotes. Clearly, in this case, it would be folly not to demonetize the old banknotes which would be nearly worthless. You could try to commit fraud particularly on unsuspecting foreigners.

AFAIK , Iceland is the only country in Europe to remove zeros in post WWII period. They took off two zeros in 1981. Italy had a 500,000 lira banknote from 1996-2002, and several countries had 10,000 unit banknote (Spain, Portugal, Greece, etc.).

In Europe there is typically a rather lengthy period when old notes can be mailed to the central bank for a fee. The idea is that you might find cash in a home safe of an elderly person who passes, and you want it to be worth something. But banknotes are a liability on the central bank's balance sheet and they are anxious to have the books cleared. In Switzerland banknotes are good for about 20 years and after that you have another 20 years to turn them into the central bank. After that time, the central bank donates to charity an amount equal to the unredeemed notes, and they will not redeem anything in the future. The Swiss situation is different since they have had a 1000 franc note since 1907. At one point the 1000 CHF banknote was worth more than US$1300, and is now closer to US$1000.

German Marks are no longer legal tender, but you can still change them for Euros (for a price) at banks. Sentimentalists still retain over $6 billion in German Marks and they are legally allowed to have flea markets where everything is denominated in DM.

The Euro Area has announced they stopped issuing 500 Euro banknotes and they will not be included in the new "Europa" series. The new Europa 100 and 200 banknotes will begin issuing at end of May 2019. But the old notes are not demonetized, although most people will exchange them for new 100 Euro and 200 Euro notes. These notes are quite valuable to keep as souvenirs, and there are over 500 million of them in circulation so their collector value is quite low.
Edited by PacoMartin
02/20/2019 3:17 pm
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 02/20/2019  3:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
We could also note that the 19th century was quite an active time for the U.S. in experimenting with, and abandoning small denominations that outlived their usefulness. Between 1857 and 1890 we saw the end of the 1/2 cent, the 2 cent, the 3 cent and the 20 cent coins.

Edited by tdziemia
02/20/2019 3:33 pm
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 Posted 02/20/2019  3:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
We could also note that the 19th century was quite an active time for the U.S. in experimenting with, and abandoning small denominations that outlived their usefulness. Between 1857 and 1890 we saw the end of the 1/2 cent, the 2 cent, the 3 cent and the 20 cent coins.


Outliving their usefulness isn't really an accurate depiction. The 2/3/20 cent were never actually useful. How anyone could even keep a 3 cent piece without losing it is beyond me. Only the 1/2 cent had any impact on what was available.
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 Posted 02/20/2019  3:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Bank of England typically has much shorter time to redeem archaic banknotes. The UK demonetized all banknotes worth more than £5 in 1945 because they were afraid that Nazi counterfeits were unrecovered. It took 19 years to reintroduce the £10 banknote, 25 years to reintroduce the £20 banknote (when it was worth about $50) and 36 years to reintroduce the £50 banknote (when it was briefly worth more than $100).

The £50 banknote (series D) which was reintroduced on Mar 20, 1981. A series E note was issued on Apr 20, 1994 and the series D notes were no longer valid legal tender as of Sep 20, 1996. A series F banknote was introduced on Nov 2, 2011 and the series E notes were no longer valid as of Apr 30, 2014. As the new polymer notes are introduced, they typically provide only 1 year to bank the old paper notes before they are demonetized, but all English banknotes are redeemable at the Bank of England's offices presumably forever.

The original, round £1 coin was introduced on 21 April 1983 and replaced the Bank of England £1 note, which ceased to be issued at the end of 1984 and was removed from circulation on 11 March 1988. As over 3% of the coins were counterfeit, a new, dodecagonal (12-sided) design of coin was introduced on 28 March 2017 and both new and old versions of the one pound coin circulated together until the older design was withdrawn from circulation on 15 October 2017. After that date, the older coin could only be redeemed at banks which presumably are more adept at spotting counterfeits.
Edited by PacoMartin
02/20/2019 3:56 pm
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 Posted 02/20/2019  4:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Outliving their usefulness isn't really an accurate depiction. The 2/3/20 cent were never actually useful. How anyone could even keep a 3 cent piece without losing it is beyond me. Only the 1/2 cent had any impact on what was available.
And the twenty was an attempt to correct the "mistake" of the quarter (not being truly decimal). Like dollar coins is fauilure was the result of letting it co-exist with the incumbent option.

Ah, if we had the 20 instead of the 25 it would be a lot easier to eliminate the 5.
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 Posted 02/20/2019  10:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D0ubl3Eagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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When you start cutting away denominations you end up just making things bigger and bigger and eventually looking at money just like the 1000 yen.


I would argue that it is not the elimination of lower denominations but inflation that is the reason why the lowest increment that a reasonable person would want to transact in becomes a greater number of monetary units. The elimination of low denominations is just a symptom of inflation. If we take the case of the Zimbabwe dollar, lower denominations used to be regularly used in commerce until inflation got so out of control that it no longer became worth the time and effort to deal with even the largest denominations. I think the Zimbabwe dollar provides a recent example where the effects of inflation on lower denominations is much more noticeable. Inflation in the U.S. is low enough that discussions to change any of the denominations only crop up every few decades.


Quote:
Ah, if we had the 20 instead of the 25 it would be a lot easier to eliminate the 5.

I guess we can thank Spain for that.

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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 02/21/2019  06:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
After that date, the older coin could only be redeemed at banks which presumably are more adept at spotting counterfeits.


I wasn't aware of that. We were last in the UK in 2015, so I'm pretty sure we've got some of those round 1 pound coins...
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 Posted 02/21/2019  10:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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The elimination of low denominations is just a symptom of inflation.
I agree. A symptom, not the cause.


Quote:
I guess we can thank Spain for that.
Yes. Yes we can.
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PacoMartin's Avatar
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 Posted 02/21/2019  3:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Billions of notes in circulation

Year	$1	$2	$5	$10	$20	$50	$100
2017	12.1	1.2	3.0	2.0	9.2	1.7	12.5
1997	6.7	0.6	1.6	1.4	4.4	1.0	2.9
In the last 20 years we have more or less doubled the number of $1,$2,$5,$10,$20, and $50 banknotes in circulation while the $100 has more than quadrupled.

While the reintroduction of the $500 may be a nonstarter politically, we really should look at introducing a $200 (like the Euro and the Swiss Franc).

But the 327 billion zinc pennies (or 490,000 metric tons) minted from the beginning of 1983 until the end of 2017 is just shocking. I am presuming the bronze pennies are all out of circulation.

That compares to 67 billion nickels minted from the beginning of 1938 until the end of 2018.
Edited by PacoMartin
02/21/2019 3:56 pm
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 Posted 02/21/2019  4:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sharkman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have used the 200 Euro note. I liked it a lot.
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PacoMartin's Avatar
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 Posted 02/21/2019  6:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It wasn't very popular in the original series with total production of the the three high denominations in millions of notes over a 14 year period:
4,856 €100
554 €200
1,336 €500


But preparing for the new series to be issued on May 25, 2019 they have ramped up production in anticipation of it becoming popular since it is the new highest Euro denomination. Production in millions of notes over three years from 2016-2018
3,326 €100
999 €200
discontinued €500

In comparison the orders for US$100 color banknotes hovers around 1.5 billion year over year. Less than half go for replacements
2019 1,548.8 million notes
2018 1,670.4 million notes
2017 1,516.8 million notes
2016 1,516.8 million notes
2015 1,276.8 million notes
2014 2,403.2 million notes
2013 2,502.4 million notes (new color design only)
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 Posted 02/21/2019  6:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I would argue that it is not the elimination of lower denominations but inflation that is the reason why the lowest increment that a reasonable person would want to transact in becomes a greater number of monetary units. The elimination of low denominations is just a symptom of inflation.


It's obviously not entirely one or the other, the point which maybe I did not make well was that they both contribute to that. The whole Zimbabwe thing throw it out the window, the USA isn't even close to that kind of small country. It's not derogatory or racist or anything, but small countries economies behave very differently than a super power that is essentially the biggest buyer of most things from everyone.

Lets put it this way, the world economy crashes without USA buying power. Small nations are not an example nor is a small town of 500 in the USA an example of the county
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 Posted 02/22/2019  08:50 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@basebal21, I agree that the United States economy has scale and influence that is without peer. I don't think you will find anyone here that disagrees. This is the reason that we print so many $100 bills: there is demand for them as a store of value all over the world in those smaller countries you mention, not to mention some larger ones.

But I maintain this has nothing whatsoever to do with decisions on our smallest denominations of coins, which are only used internally. We have seen the U.K., Canada, Australia, and so on eliminate their lowest denominations with no ill effects. Zimbabwe (or 1920s Europe) is illustrative because we get to see the impact of inflation on demand for money at a high rate of change: changes that take decades or centruies in a stable economy happen in a few months. Of course nobody is saying the U.S. economy in 2019 is like that of Zimbabwe.
We also already did it (eliminate our lowest denomination) once. And then eliminated our second lowest less than two decades later. This did not signal the demise of the United States as a world power, nor would the elimination of the penny.
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