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How Long Until People Don't Use Coins Anymore?

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PacoMartin's Avatar
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 Posted 02/19/2019  4:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This fear that eliminating small coins and conversely introducing larger value banknotes will increase inflation is very common around the world. Personally, I find it ridiculous, but it is very common. I think inflation is the cause of the changes in money denominations.

There was massive paranoia that the changeover to the Euro would be used to hide price increases. As a result a law was introduced over much of Europe that the prices had to be identical after the conversion.

The result in Spain was comical as 1000 Spanish pesetas converted at 166.386 peseta/Euro resulted in exactly 6.01 Euros. So while groceries are often priced at unusual rates, admissions to movies, museums and buses tend to be round numbers. So if a museum was formerly 1000 pesetas, it was now 6.01 Euros. As it was illegal to round off, people had to reach in their pockets and produce the extra Euro cent.
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 02/19/2019  4:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Whatever is the smallest ends up getting viewed and a minuscule amount of money that can get thrown around, keeping that denomination as small as possible is better off for consumers
I think the dime is plenty small. The cent and nickel have had a good run, but their time has come.
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 02/19/2019  5:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
... it's the way we view money. If you eliminate the penny the nickle seems to be less valuable since it is the new smallest denomination. Same would then happen if that was gone with a dime.


I disagree with this premise as it applies to coins.

To me, pennies nickels and dimes are all essentially worthless in the sense you are describing, because I cannot think of a single thing I buy that costs a penny, nickel or dime (PacoMartin's comment that it is inflation that determines logical denominations, and not vice versa). I can't buy a candy bar, a pack of gum, a piece of fruit, a can of soda, or anything else I can think of (with a quarter, however, I can buy 15 or 20 minutes on a parking meter, so quarters do have an inherent purchasing utility, though most meters now accept plastic, too). As mentioned earlier by other posters, pennies, nickels and dimes are largely used to make change on uneven transaction amounts. So I do not possibly see how getting rid of the penny makes a nickel seem less valuable. They both have the same utility: making change, not buying anything.

The $1 vs $50 argument is different, as this gets into denominations that can actually purchase things. I expect the experiments have been done to test that hypothesis.
Edited by tdziemia
02/19/2019 5:17 pm
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jbuck's Avatar
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basebal21's Avatar
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 Posted 02/19/2019  6:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Individual opinions don't drive human nature or the biggest market in the world. It has nothing to do with whether or not a single coin can buy something.

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PacoMartin's Avatar
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 Posted 02/19/2019  7:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One of my personal tests of whether an idea is practical is who else has done it. Australia stopped minting the one-cent and the two-cent coin from circulation in 1992. Twenty years later in 2012 Canada stopped minting the one-cent coin. I believe the coins are legal tender in Australia, and I know they still are in Canada. But with no new coins coming people don't normally use or expect them for change.

But all the major currencies, the USD and Euro, the Japanese Yen and the British Pound still have the penny equivalent. But none of these competing currencies find it necessary to mint them in such massive quantities as the USA.

But using the Canadian and Australian Dollar as an example it seems like it might be practical to follow their lead. I think it would require developing a new zinc 5-cent piece.


Quote:
I think the dime is plenty small. The cent and nickel have had a good run, but their time has come.

My only concern is Sweden is the only country that I can find that does not have a 5 cent equivalent coin. I doubt that the USA is going to take the lead on any innovation.
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 02/19/2019  9:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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But all the major currencies, the USD and Euro, the Japanese Yen and the British Pound still have the penny equivalent


Maybe this is splitting hairs, but it was the UK decimal half penny that was the equivalent of the U.S. cent at the time of decimalization. And it was phased out and demonetized in 1984.
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D0ubl3Eagle's Avatar
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 Posted 02/19/2019  10:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D0ubl3Eagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Could it be that a $1000 in the U.S. is perceived to have much more value than 1000¥ in Japan because 1000 USD has more than 100x the purchasing power of 1000¥ in Japan and not due any sort of comparison to another denomination? I believe people view the value of money in terms of its exchange value which depends on what someone has to give up to get it and once had, what someone else is willing to give up in exchange for it.

If the lowest denomination were to become a dollar, prices and any prices changes may be more likely to be in whole dollars but that would be just looking at it in nominal terms. If looked at in real terms, we could be having this same debate about a one dollar denomination assuming physical currency is still around then. As long as inflation is above 0, that will happen.

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PacoMartin's Avatar
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 Posted 02/20/2019  05:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Lincoln Cent was introduced in 1909 and an item bought for 1 cent in 1909 would be over 25 cents today. I realize that is a pretty good argument for eliminating both the penny and the nickel. However,

the Swiss have a 5 centimes coin Diameter = 17.15 mm weighing 1.8 grams of
Aluminum bronze(92% Cu, 6% Al, 2% Ni but NO Zinc)

which is slightly smaller than

the Lincoln Cent Diameter = 19.05 mm weighing 2.5 grams of
Copper-plated zinc (97.5% Zn, 2.5% Cu)

I think everyone knows that Switzerland is the most cash intensive society on earth, with a $5 equivalent coin and fairly wide circulation of the $1000 equivalent banknote.I would be shocked if the USA abolished minting new 5-cent pieces before Switzerland.
Edited by PacoMartin
02/20/2019 09:40 am
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 02/20/2019  09:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
In truth I do not think we need to get rid of the "five cents" coin. We can survive if we did, but it can stay. However, we do need to change its composition to bring its cost below face. If this is done then we will have gotten rid of "the nickel" as I suggested. With that change, the "five cents coin should go" argument loses some bite.

I should also add that getting rid of the five cents coin makes keeping the quarter a bit more cumbersome.
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PacoMartin's Avatar
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 Posted 02/20/2019  09:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add PacoMartin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

On March 25, 2009, the Swedish central bank formally decided to enact the law to repeal 50-öre coins (5-cent equivalent) as legal tender. Under that law, the final date payments could be made with 50-öre coins was September 30, 2010. Remaining 50-öre coins could be exchanged at banks until the end of March 2011. But AFAIK they are the only country to formally demonetize 5-cent equivalent.

The USA cannot demonetize, they can only stop minting. However, the public's capacity to shove billions of coins into bottles should not be minimized.
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 02/20/2019  10:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The USA cannot demonetize
We can. We have. We just do not.

Quote:
they can only stop minting.
We can. We have. We just do not.
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tdziemia's Avatar
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 Posted 02/20/2019  11:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tdziemia to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was curious about that comment "...cannot demonetize."

Is that true?

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 Posted 02/20/2019  1:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sharkman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I hadn't heard of the term "demonitize" until this topic started. Does that mean the government declares that previously legal money becomes worthless? If so, why isn't that a taking of property the government should compensate for?
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basebal21's Avatar
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 Posted 02/20/2019  1:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Could it be that a $1000 in the U.S. is perceived to have much more value than 1000¥ in Japan because 1000 USD has more than 100x the purchasing power of 1000¥ in Japan and not due any sort of comparison to another denomination?


That's part of it, but it's not like Japan is a third world country. As you said below "If the lowest denomination were to become a dollar, prices and any prices changes may be more likely to be in whole dollars but that would be just looking at it in nominal terms."

When you start cutting away denominations you end up just making things bigger and bigger and eventually looking at money just like the 1000 yen.


Quote:
I hadn't heard of the term "demonitize" until this topic started. Does that mean the government declares that previously legal money becomes worthless?


Yes. Basically you have until x to cash these in for something else and the government does have to compensate for it which is also often ignored.
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