How Low (On Silver Content Below 70%) Can You Go? - Page 16

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tdziemia Pillar of the Community United States 7963 Posts	Posted 01/06/2024 11:37 pm Quote: I found my Turkey Yuzluk K507, which takes the 47% spot Sweet! Especially since this slice is looking pretty tough. Report this Post to the Staff
january1may Pillar of the Community Russian Federation 5178 Posts	Posted 01/07/2024 07:10 am I'm not very confident of the silver content of this coin (nor do I know how to confirm it), but Numista lists it at 0.141 = 14%. Sweden, Eric XIV 1/2 öre, 1566 MB# 105, Numista 31345 Still a little sad sometimes that I didn't bother to buy one of the barely-more-expensive intact examples instead. Never saw one of those in person again even in this condition. Report this Post to the Staff
tdziemia Pillar of the Community United States 7963 Posts	Posted 01/07/2024 08:05 am Nice one! I wonder if erafjel is familiar with sources of info like this for Swedish coins for confirmation? Certainly seems possible that coins would be of similar composition across the Baltic from each other. Report this Post to the Staff
erafjel Pillar of the Community Sweden 2124 Posts	Posted 01/07/2024 09:10 am Quote: I wonder if erafjel is familiar with sources of info like this for Swedish coins for confirmation? I did check, but unfortunately I cannot find any sources for king Eric's coins (yet, I will look a bit more). A private collector's web site about John III (Eric's successor) and his ½ öre coins, states that those were of varying quality, with fineness varying from one year to another in the range 0.047 to 0.205 (so he must have had some source). Eric tinkered with the silver as much as his successor (and brother) John, so the number 0.141, although in the correct range, may or may not apply to the year 1566 (Eric minted ½ öre coins 1561-1568). Edit: After some more digging, I found an 1869 book (online, in Swedish), where the author has gone through all the contemporary minting documents in detail and noted, among other things, how much silver was consumed by the minting for each denomination each year. Comparing with the nominal weight, one can easily calculate the fineness. For Eric's ½ öre, the fineness was actually consistent over the years, with the value 0.133. That is also a value that is stated on a couple of other Swedish numismatic sites that deal with these coins, so I think that is the accepted number. Where Numista has its 0.141 number from, I don't know, but it doesn't seem to match with any Swedish sources. Edited by erafjel 01/07/2024 10:38 am Report this Post to the Staff
tdziemia Pillar of the Community United States 7963 Posts	Posted 01/08/2024 1:34 pm I don't know the source of the Numista figure. If I look at the lsitings there for Erik XIV, I see they were created at different times by different contributors, but there was a point where one referee seems to have come through and corrected composition on some of them. In one case (1 Mark, MB# 119), Ahlstrom is cited as the source, but when I open the link to Ahlstrom, I don't see compositions in their listings for Erik XIV. Presumably the referee who entered that number got it from a reference that was wrong (as in my Polish coins in the 50% range where Gumowski recorded that the composition changed over time, but KM does not reflect it). Or it was transcribed incorrectly. Report this Post to the Staff
erafjel Pillar of the Community Sweden 2124 Posts	Posted 01/08/2024 6:04 pm I dont' think Ahlström provides any info on composition for coins earlier than the 19th century and neither do other Swedish reference works. There are mint records and ordonnances, but they have not been digitized (as far as I know), so to access them you have to pay a visit to the National Archives. For some periods, info can be found in books by someone who paid that visit (like for the period 1449-1573 in the book I consulted). Report this Post to the Staff
tdziemia Pillar of the Community United States 7963 Posts	Posted 01/09/2024 08:35 am Thank you! If I look at the composition of several contemporary Swedish coins of Erik listed on Numista, the fit of silver content does not seem to agree very well: https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces31345.html 1/2 Ore: 0.141 x 1.67 gr. = 0.24 g. silver (at 0.133 it goes to 0.22 gr.) https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces110601.html 0.156 x 2.65 gr. = 0.41 gr. silver https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces64232.html 0.484 x 3.01 gr. = 1.46 gr. silver Some of this can be because the weight is often the weight measured on one coin, and not the specified weight. But it seems the composition of the 2 ore coin may be off, too. Edited by tdziemia 01/09/2024 08:48 am Report this Post to the Staff
mrwhatisit Pillar of the Community United States 2962 Posts	Posted 01/09/2024 08:43 am Ok, was running into issues with my phone for a few days on posting and data, but here are the photos of that one coin... Somalia 1950 one Somalo at 25% silver Report this Post to the Staff
erafjel Pillar of the Community Sweden 2124 Posts	Posted 01/09/2024 10:49 am Quote: If I look at the composition of several contemporary Swedish coins of Erik listed on Numista, the fit of silver content does not seem to agree very well Looking into the 1869 book again: The 2 öre 1565-1568 should be 0.344 (5½/16) silver. The weight (3.01 g) corresponds to the data in the book. That gives a silver content of 1.03 g, which corresponds better with the ½ öre. The 1 öre is more problematic, it was minted only 1564 which seems to have been the last of a series of years with successively reduced silver content. I can see that the 0.156 value probably comes from one set of data in the same book, but there is also other data pointing to 0.344, the same as for 2 öre. The weight I am not able to figure out from the book, but two examples from auctions weighed 2.58 g resp. 3.35 g. The 0.156 value seems to correspond fairly well with the 1565 and later ½ öre coins. Report this Post to the Staff
tdziemia Pillar of the Community United States 7963 Posts	Posted 01/09/2024 11:13 am Nice addition! Hard hard to believe it's not just copper from the photo. It will be added to the comprehensive list (with oriole's Ottoman coin) next time it updates. I think we have these compositions thus far for the 10-19% range: 19% Poland 5 groszy KM#C96.3 (spence) ........Poland 10 groszy KM#C84 (tdziemia, oriole) 18% France/Dauphine Charles V liard (erafjel) 17% Lorraine liard N#59724 (erafjel). Probable but not confirmed. 16% Poland-Lithuania Stefan Batory schilling N#96442 (tdziemia) ........Poland-Lithuania Sigismund III schilling N# 96677 (spence) 13%* Sweden ½ ore N# 31345 (january1may); listed at 14% on Numista 13% France Henry III liard N#43704 (erafjel) .......Lithuania schilling/solidus KM#41 (tdziemia) 11% Italy/Venice tornesello N#76361 (january1may) 10% Mexico 1 peso KM#459 (Hondo Boguss) .......France/Lorraine 2 deniers 1581 (tdziemia). Probably but not confirmed I might need to bite the bullet and add a Polish coin to my collection for 17% Let's give it another day, and move to the 0 - 9% slice on Thursday morning. I think that will be another tough one. Edited by tdziemia 01/09/2024 4:11 pm Report this Post to the Staff
erafjel Pillar of the Community Sweden 2124 Posts	Posted 01/09/2024 11:15 am We still haven't filled the 17 % slot, I have a candidate for that, but I need a Lorraine expert (yes, that's you @tdziemia ) to assess it. Lorraine liard, 1545-1608. 0.167 silver? No year on this one, and there seems to be many varieties, and no idea if it is possible to narrow the date range. The only info I have for Lorraine coins is Saulcy's "Recherches sur les monnaies des ducs hereditaires de Lorraine". There is a citation from a 1557 document about the ducal coins, stating that liards should be 2 deniers fine, that is, 2/12 = 0.167. So is it likely that that applied over the whole time period (there are no other documents about fineness for the period, as far as I can see)? An alternative view (if there is no way to ascertain that this particular coin has a different fineness) is to consider this coin as a representative of a series of liards, some of which at least, are 0.167. Report this Post to the Staff
tdziemia Pillar of the Community United States 7963 Posts	Posted 01/09/2024 11:57 am Yes, I also ran across that page in de Saulcy, but didn't pursue it further for exactly the reason you mention, since I have a 2 denier coin from this reign, which would be even lower (1 denier, 4 grains ). I think the logic is reasonable, and I guess I just learned that when the purity is mentioned as "de fin" then the 23/24 factor does not apply? Maybe we add to the list with an asterisk (probably, not confirmed)? (Added) Here is my 2 denier coin, not yet in Numista, "probably 10%, not confirmed" on silver content: Edited by tdziemia 01/09/2024 12:06 pm Report this Post to the Staff
erafjel Pillar of the Community Sweden 2124 Posts	Posted 01/09/2024 1:27 pm That's a nice 2 denier! Yes, "de fin" means nominally 100 %, although in reality, of course, the "argent-le-duc" (like any other "pure" silver from the time) would never be absolutely pure, but maybe 98-99 %. Asterisk and "probably, not confirmed", sounds fine for the liard. Report this Post to the Staff
tdziemia Pillar of the Community United States 7963 Posts	Posted 01/09/2024 3:38 pm The May Heidelberger auction had quite a nice selection of Lorraine coins, including some small denominations like this I had never seen before. Though Charles was a prolific coiner, his dated types are a bit tougher, and I think there are very few dated small denominations. Report this Post to the Staff
tdziemia Pillar of the Community United States 7963 Posts	Posted 01/10/2024 9:02 pm Here is where our comprehensive list stands after adding in the new contributions in the 10-19% slice (and some for earlier compositions). Depending on how we count, we are at I think we are at 50-51 compositions out of a possible 60 thus far, and with leads identified for most of the missing ones 69% Poland ¼ thaler 1657 KM#A94 (tdziemia) 68% France 20 francs 1930s KM#879 (erafjel, Hondo Boguss) 67% France 30 sols 1792 KM#606 (ironhorse) ........Germany / Prussia 1/3 thaler KM#303 (spence) 65% Costa Rica 25 centimos 1924 KM#168 (NumisRob) ........Portugal 50 escudos 1971 KM#601 (triggersmob) 64% Austria 5, 10 schillings KM#2882, 2889 (Hondo Boguss) ........Curacao ½ guilder 1941 KM#44 (Hondo Boguss) ........Curacao 1/10 guilder 1944 KM#43 (january1may) ........Netherlands 5 cents 1859 KM#91 (spence) ........Netherlands 25 cents KM#164 (triggersmob) 63% Germany 5 marks 1958 KM#123.1 (mrwhatisit) ........Poland 2 gulden 1770 KM#186.2 (tdziemia) 62% Flanders 4 stuivers 1540 N#96940 (tdziemia) 60% Straits Settlements 20 cents 1927 KM#30b (Hondo Boguss) ........Sweden 25 öre 1907 KM#775 (triggersmob) Also noted that the pegione of Milan circa 1400 was at around 66%, and that the Kutch 1/2 kori (Y-13) is at 61%. (Note: for some of the Kutch coins listed at 0.61 in Numista, KM has them at 0.601). 59% Poland 2 zlote KM#C-123 (tdziemia) 58% Austria 20 kreuzer KM#1999 (paralyse) .......Dutch Republic/Holland, 2 stuivers, KM#48 (spence) .......Hungary, 20 krajcar, KM#432 (paralyse) .......Spanish Netherlands/Brabant escalin KM#47 (tdziemia) 57% Nethelands 5 cents KM#52 (BCTokens) ........Liege escalin KM#165 (paralyse) 56% German States/Prussia 1/6 thaler KM#299 (spence) .......German States/Oldenburg 28 stubuer KM#40(Jever) (paralyse) 55% Ceylon 10 cents KM#109a (oriole) 54% Poland 4 groszy 1767 KM#185 (tdziemia); KM has this at 55% 52% Austria ¼ Florin KM#2214 (oriole) 51% Poland 4 groschen 1787 KM#208.1 (tdziemia); KM has at 55% 50% Australia florin 1958 KM#60 (triggersmob) ........Canada 25 cents KM#62a, 68a (DBM) ........Egypt 2 quirsh 1944 KM#369 (Hondo Boguss) ........France 10 euros 2011 (NumisRob) ........German States/Bavaria 20 kreuzer KM#549.1(paralyse) ........Great Britain florin KM#817a, crown KM#836 (NumisRob) ........Great Britain halfcrown KM#818.2 (paralyse) ........Great Britain 3p KM#848, 6p & shilling KM#852, 853 (Hondo Boguss) ........India ½ rupee 1945 KM#552 (Hondo Boguss) ........New Zealand ½ Crown 1935 KM#5 (Hondo Boguss) ........Peru 1 sol 1931 KM#218.2 (Hondo Boguss) ........Poland 1 gulden 1664 KM#120 (tdziemia, paralyse) ........Portugal 1000 escudos KM#731, 10 euros 2010 (hfjacinto) ........Russia 10 kopeks KM#Y20a (paralyse) ........South Africa 50 cents KM#62 (Hondo Boguss) ........USSR 10, 15, 20 kopeks KM#Y80-82 (january1may) Noted that the 1/6 talara coin of the Duchy of Warsaw, KM#C85 under Poland is 53%. 49% German States/Saxony-Albertine 1/12 thaler KM#638 (paralyse) 48% Burgundian Netherlands/Brabant 2 gros N#95425 (tdziemia) .......France, blanc Charles VI (1385-1389) (erafjel) 47% Turkey/Ottoman yuzluk KM#507 (oriole) 46% Duchy of Brabant ½ real N# (tdziemia) 45% Poland 6 groschen KM#42 (tdziemia) 44% German States/Hamburg doppelschilling KM#419 (spence) .......German States/Hamburg 4 schilling (KM#359.1) and 8 schilling KM#367 (paralyse) .......German States/Prussia 1/12 thaler KM#298 (paralyse) 42% Mexico 50 centavos KM#448 (ariette) 41% Burgundian Netherlands/Brabant 2 gros N#104038 (tdziemia) 40% Burgundian Netherlands/Flanders, briquet N#248787 (tdziemia) .......France, blanc Charles VII N#4633 (erafjel) .......French Indochina 10 cents KM#14 (erafjel) .......Sweden I krone KM#814 (paralyse) .......Sweden 5 kronor KM#839 (triggersmob) .......U.S. Eisenhower dollar (jbuck, paralyse, kbbpll) .......U.S. Kennedy half (paralyse) Noted by january1may that medieval Brabant 2 gros coin N#309707 is 43%. 38% German States/Baden 6 kreuzer KM#140 (paralyse) ........German States/Nassau 6 kreuzer KM#53 (paralyse) ........German States/Prussia 2 ½ groschen KM#486 (mrwhatisit) ........Lithuania ½ groat Alexander N#31088, 343561 (DBM, january1may) ........Lithuania ½ groat Sigismund I N#63424, 130413 (january1may, DBM) ........Lithuania ½ groat Sigismund II N#35047, 104468, (tdziemia) ........Sweden 1/24 Riksdaler KM#522 (paralyse) 37% Poland 1 groat KM#163 (tdziemia) 36% Lithuania groat KM#10 (tdziemia) 35% Dominican Republic ½ peso KM#15 (ariette) ........Finland 1 markka KM# 49 (triggersmob) ........German States/Saxe-Meiningen 6 kreuzer KM#134 (paralyse) ........U.S. Jefferson War Nickel (Hondo Boguss, jbuck, paralyse) 34% Lithuanian groat 1566 N#46216 (tdziemia) 33% France 10 euro Le Mans KM#3229 (Numisrob) ........German States/Baden 3 kreuzer KM#211 (spence) ........German States/Bavaria 3 kreuzer KM#800 (paralyse) ........German States/Frankfurt 3 kreuzer KM#373 (paralyse) ........German States/Wurttemburg 3, 6 kreuzer KM#572, 577 (paralyse) 32% France, Charles VIII dizain N#34529 (erafjel) 31% German States/Mecklenberg-Schwein schilling KM#273 (paralyse) ........German States/Prussia 6 groscher KM#A297 (spence) ........German States/Prussia 1/24 thaler KM#296 (paralyse) ........Italy/Papal States-Bologna muraiola KM#146? (january1may) ........Silesia/Schweidnitz ½ groat N#65413 (tdziemia) 30% France denier tournois Louis IX N#42076 (erafjel) ........Mexico 25, 50 centavos, peso KM#443, 449, 457 (Hondo Boguss) Noted by @paralyse that some 18th century Venetian coins KM#502, 504, 545, 575 are at 39%. 29% Poland 6 groszy KM#155 (tdziemia) 28% County of Flanders 1 groot N#98102 (tdziemia) 26% County of Holland 1 groot N#98269 (tdziemia) 25% East Africa 1 shilling KM#28 (oriole) .......East Africa 1/2 shilling KM#20 (NumisRob) .......German States/Hamburg sechsling KM#585 (paralyse) .......Somalia 1 somalo KM#5 (mrwhatisit) 24% France/Brittany liard 1492-1498 N#178499 (erafjel) 23% Poland Elbing schilling N#107714 (tdziemia) 22% German States/Hanover 1 groschen KM#236 (spence, paralyse) ........German States/Saxe-Weimar-Eisenach 1/2 & 1 gr KM#198, 199 (paralyse) ........Lithuania 1 denar N# 46192, 175323 (january1may) ........Lithuania 2 denars N#36694, (tdziemia) ........Poland 1 denar #175270 (january1may) ........Turkey/Ottoman 5 kurus KM#591 (mrwhatisit) 21% France 30 deniers KM#378.1 (january1may) ........French Guiana 2 sous KM#1 (Hondo Boguss) ........German States/Mecklenberg-Schwerin 1/48thaler KM#311 (paralyse) 20% German States/Westphalia 10 centimes KM#96 (paralyse) Noted by erafjel that there are some 27% coins from medieval France. 19% Poland 5 groszy KM#C96.3 (spence) ........Poland 10 groszy KM#C84 (tdziemia, oriole) 18% France/Dauphine Charles V liard (erafjel) 17%* Lorraine liard N#59724 (erafjel). Probable but not confirmed. 16% Poland-Lithuania Stefan Batory schilling N#96442 (tdziemia) ........Poland-Lithuania Sigismund III schilling N# 96677 (spence) 13%* Sweden ½ ore N# 31345 (january1may); listed at 14% on Numista 13% France Henry III liard N#43704 (erafjel) .......Lithuania schilling/solidus KM#41 (tdziemia) 11% Italy/Venice tornesello N#76361 (january1may) 10% Mexico 1 peso KM#459 (Hondo Boguss) .......France/Lorraine 2 deniers 1581 (tdziemia). Probably but not confirmed Noted that Poland-Lithuania schillings 1612-1622 are 17%, and that some medieval Low Countries 1/4 gros/groots are at 14% and 15%. We were at 44/50 (88%) for 69-20%, but this last slice has brought us down a bit to 51/60 (85%), and even a bit lower if we don;t count the 17% coin. If I missed anything, let me know. Tomorrow we start scraping the bottom of the barrel on silver content! Edited by tdziemia 01/10/2024 9:04 pm Report this Post to the Staff
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