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Walking Back From 1600 With Dated Coins

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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 01/28/2025  08:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Updated gap listing: 1464, 1463, 1462, 1457, 1454, 1446, 1428, 1426, 1414, 1409, 1408, 1407, and there's been no further gaps so far. This comes out as (again) a bit over 95% coverage.


Quote:
My next entry is 1387 (789 AH), which is due this Saturday, I believe.
Excellent!
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ttkoo's Avatar
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 Posted 01/29/2025  03:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ttkoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1391 CE - AH 793 Bahmani Tanka
Given the style of the last tanka, I don't think that the last digit is a retrograde 4, but it's out here for comment.
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The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
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 Posted 01/29/2025  09:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Given the style of the last tanka, I don't think that the last digit is a retrograde 4, but it's out here for comment.
I think a 4 would have been shaped very differently, yes. I'm more unsure about 5...

[EDIT: oh, here's another 793 on IndianCoins with a very similar 3. I'm a lot more confident about yours then.]
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bd251's Avatar
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 Posted 01/29/2025  10:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bd251 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looks like a 3 to me
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ttkoo's Avatar
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 Posted 01/31/2025  12:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ttkoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
[EDIT: oh, here's another 793 on IndianCoins with a very similar 3. I'm a lot more confident about yours then.]


Quote:
Looks like a 3 to me

I'm more confident now too, thanks.

1390 CE AH 792 Bahmani Tanka
This is my last (or first) big silver Bahmani.
Walking-Back-From-1600-With-Dated-Coins

The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
Edited by ttkoo
01/31/2025 12:34 am
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 Posted 01/31/2025  07:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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I'm more confident now too, thanks.
Yay!

Current gap listing: 1464, 1463, 1462, 1457, 1454, 1446, 1414, 1409, 1408, 1407, 1389. AFAICT we're actually on 1388 today; it feels like you miscounted the days at some point.
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 Posted 01/31/2025  8:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ttkoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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(Are you planning to also eventually fill up the local date sets even for years that you already have other coins for? Obviously assuming that it fits within your budget, of course.)

Yes, eventually. Concentrating on empty dates first, but also looking for the holes in my existing sets, again yes, depends on the prices.

Quote:
AFAICT we're actually on 1388 today; it feels like you miscounted the days at some point.

Yes, quite right, I have been distracted lately with other matters, and a day slips by unnoticed occasionally. Luckily you have your finger on the pulse!


The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
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Spence's Avatar
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 Posted 01/31/2025  8:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Really amazing work @ttk. Keep them coming even if you are off by a day! It will be another couple weeks before I can post something from my collection.
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 Posted 01/31/2025  9:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ttkoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My coin for 1389 is this Timurid AR Miri - Mahmud Khan AH (79)1
The 1 is at 7:30, RH image. This miri can be differentiated from the AH 801 posthumous type, as it lacks the addition of a Timurid tamgha mark on the obverse side (RH), additionally the date on this 791 coin is below the word "rasulu" (messenger), whereas the AH 801 has the date above rasulu. http://www.worldofcoins.eu/forum/in...opic=44346.0
Walking-Back-From-1600-With-Dated-Coins
The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
Edited by ttkoo
01/31/2025 9:31 pm
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 Posted 01/31/2025  9:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ttkoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Really amazing work @ttk. Keep them coming even if you are off by a day!

Thanks @Spence....catching up now. I'll post another later in the day when the CCF clock creeps past midnight.
Also looking forward to @j1m's Timurid miri for 1387

And today's coin for 1388, another Timurid AR Miri AH (7)90
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The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
Edited by ttkoo
01/31/2025 9:48 pm
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 Posted 02/01/2025  04:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ttkoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For 1387 I have a Juchid Mongols AR Dirham AH (7)89
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 Posted 02/01/2025  06:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add january1may to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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Also looking forward to @j1m's Timurid miri for 1387
Indeed a Timurid miri. The last two were minted (under Timur) in the name of Sultan Mahmud Khan; this one is in the name of Mahmud's predecessor Suyurghatmish, who died in 1388.

The date on it straightforwardly converts to 1387 (the year 789 AH lasted from January 1387 until January 1388), but the coin must have been issued so late in the year (for chronological reasons) that for a while I wasn't sure if the issuing period was actually in that year! I think it probably mostly was, though.

Walking-Back-From-1600-With-Dated-Coins Walking-Back-From-1600-With-Dated-Coins

Timurid Empire, first occupation of Iran (1387-8)
(Timur) in the name of Suyurghatmish
AR miri (2 dinars)
Furk (Forg) mint, 789 AH (1387 AD)
Album 2367.1, Zeno cat. 6020
not on Numista AFAICT

Walking-Back-From-1600-With-Dated-Coins

The chronology of the first Timurid occupation of Iran seems to be almost unmentioned in online sources. Isfahan very quickly surrendered and then almost immediately rebelled; the rebellion was harshly put down in November 1387, but the city architecture was mostly preserved.
Timur's army then went south to Shiraz, which ultimately also survived relatively undamaged; chronologically I suspect that the Isfahan rebellion probably took place while the main army was away in Shiraz, but I couldn't quickly find any definite sources one way or another.

Furk is usually identified as (somewhere in) modern Forg District, southeast of Shiraz. This implies a very late date of occupation, and consequently a very late start of minting; around October 1387 if we assume that the southern occupation happened in parallel to the Isfahan rebellion, closer to December if it only occurred later.
With the year 789 AH ending around January 17th (Gregorian - earlier in Julian) of 1388, it really does look like the timing might be close for the majority being in the wrong year! It probably wasn't that late, though.


The occupation (indeed "rather brief", as Album says) was eventually interrupted by news from the east: taking advantage of the temporary displacement of the Timurid army, Tokhtamysh (yes, the same as on the other 1387 coin) had invaded Central Asia and was about to march on Samarkand...
Quote:
While Timur remained in Persia, in the winter of 1387-1388, Tokhtamysh overran Central Asia, where part of his forces besieged Sawran, while another crossed Khwarazm to besiege Bukhara. Timur's commanders prepared to defend Samarqand and other towns against the expected continued advance of Tokhtamysh, and Timur himself headed back from Shiraz to Samarqand with his main forces in February 1388.
(quoted from Wikipedia)

Album claims that the overall type was also issued in 790 AH; I was unable to find an example with that date (or, for that matter, any 790 AH Timurid coin in Suyurghatmish's name at all, though Sultan Mahmud 790 AH coins are plentiful). Out of the 29 examples on Zeno, 11 are undated, and the other 18 have the (variously spelled) 789 AH date.
I'm guessing that he had probably personally seen one (he actively collected Timurid coins), but it's not impossible that he just assumed that the type was probably issued in both years because the occupation lasted into both years (February 1388 was already in 790 AH).

As it turns out, all (six) of the Furk mint examples on Zeno are die matches with each other (easily identified by three lumps on the central circle). My coin is also a die match, so it must have also been dated 789.
(I'm not sure why there seem to be so many of those Furk coins. Album does not list Furk as one of the "least rare" mints for the type. It's possible that a hoard had been found - or, at least, dispersed - after Album's research.)
Indeed, having confirmed the match, I can even show where the date is on those blurry pics of that weak strike...

Walking-Back-From-1600-With-Dated-Coins

...there is some uncertainty in the 8, but the 7 and the 9 are relatively clear.
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 Posted 02/02/2025  03:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ttkoo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@J1M, that's a great summation. Thoroughly enjoyed the read.
The Ox moves slowly, but the Earth is patient.
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