Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Specializing in Modern Numismatics Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin AuctionsVancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer 300,000 items to help build your collection! Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes.








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

1941 P Lincoln 1c Broken T

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 25 / Views: 1,679Next Topic
Page: of 2
Moderator
Learn More...
Dearborn's Avatar
United States
96857 Posts
 Posted 12/10/2025  06:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dearborn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a question about this 'broken' T

Seeing how the letters (devices) are incuse on the die, would it be more accurate to call them "incomplete 'T's" rather than broken?
Pillar of the Community
fortcollins's Avatar
United States
3659 Posts
 Posted 12/10/2025  6:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, the first hubbing by a broken "T" hub would be an incomplete first hubbing "T" on the die.

The theory is that the "T"s broke on two of the working hubs, leading to an incomplete first hubbing "T" on many working dies. That is confirmed because there are a couple double dies where the second hubbing was done by a different broken "T" 1941 hub.

The theory is that the Mint then intentionally completed the remaining rehubbings with an intact "T" hub. This process then generated the dozens of intact/incomplete "T" doubled dies. What makes all of this interesting is the distinctly doubled "4" in many dates, with apparent differences in the shape of the second hubbing "4." Unless a 1940 hub was used, the differences in the shape of the "4"s is difficult to explain.
Moderator
Learn More...
Dearborn's Avatar
United States
96857 Posts
Pillar of the Community
CoinHI's Avatar
United States
2735 Posts
 Posted 12/11/2025  9:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHI to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for following up fortcollins. I'm going to try and take some better closeups of the 41. I don't see the zero on your example though, I wonder if you've seen some uncirculated examples of what you're talking about?

In general I am trying to figure out if grinding down a digit can produce an incuse ghost image on the hub.

In regards to the coin I posted I don't see two T's, just one broken T. How does that fit in with the other examples?
"Pride is yoked with callous behavior, as humility is with compassion." St. Gregory Palamas

Top Finds - 1969-S 1c FS-101 http://goccf.com/t/477681 1976 D WQ FS-101 http://goccf.com/t/382777 - 1968 D 1c FS-801 http://goccf.com/t/422254
Cool clashed dies - 1972 D 1c http://goccf.com/t/429855&SearchTerms=CCL
Struck-In Rim Burr - 1969 S 1c http://goccf.com/t/425587&SearchTerms=burr
Floating (Type II) Counterclash - 1978 D 1c http://goccf.com/t/434991&SearchTerms=1978


Pillar of the Community
fortcollins's Avatar
United States
3659 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2025  12:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You actually have three "T"s. The broken "T" was hubbed twice, doubled to the east lightly. I marked it with the red arrows on this copy of your posted picture. The intact "T" was hubbed very lightly, but the top left of the squared crossbar is weakly visible next to and below the broken crossbar of the primary "T." I marked it with the blue arrows. Several of the currently listed rehubbed "T"s are lightly rehubbed. Several of the as-yet-unlisted rehubbed "T"s are very lightly rehubbed. Take a look at:
DDO-009
DDO-012
DDO-015 (which may possibly be a different die state of your coin)
DDO-020/1-DO-036
DDO-027
1-DO-012
1-DO-013
1-DO-014
1-DO-025
1-DO-031 (which is also 1-DR-003)
1-DO-034 (which is also DDR-004/1-DR-005)

Grinding down the digit doesn't leave a ghost image on the hub. If the digit isn't ground all the way down, there may be enough left to impress the remnant lightly into a working die, producing a weak/ghost image on coins. If the digit is fully ground down (as in 1949), nothing of that digit should be transferred to a working die, and obviously nothing would be visible on coins struck from that die.

Again, everything about 1941 is theoretical right now. It's a crazy year for cents, and a lot more study is needed to figure out what was going on in Philadelphia. The large number of 1941 cents I'm going through are all circulated, from bags in estate sales. I wish I had uncirculated coins to look at, but I don't. Again, that's why much more study is needed to figure out this date.
Pillar of the Community
Learn More...
FsdWarp10's Avatar
United States
687 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2025  1:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FsdWarp10 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting! Thanks for sharing all this info.
Pillar of the Community
CoinHI's Avatar
United States
2735 Posts
 Posted 12/12/2025  2:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHI to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I started looking through some high grade examples on PCGS of the 1941's in hopes of seeing something but none of the examples seemed to be with broken T's. I'm curious if you've done this?

Might thoughts about this are primarily in relation to the 60P oddity I've posted. Do you have any thoughts on those coins? There is some sort of weak/ghost image left on a working hub that transferred to multiple working dies that transferred to coins that doesn't fit neatly into known causes.
"Pride is yoked with callous behavior, as humility is with compassion." St. Gregory Palamas

Top Finds - 1969-S 1c FS-101 http://goccf.com/t/477681 1976 D WQ FS-101 http://goccf.com/t/382777 - 1968 D 1c FS-801 http://goccf.com/t/422254
Cool clashed dies - 1972 D 1c http://goccf.com/t/429855&SearchTerms=CCL
Struck-In Rim Burr - 1969 S 1c http://goccf.com/t/425587&SearchTerms=burr
Floating (Type II) Counterclash - 1978 D 1c http://goccf.com/t/434991&SearchTerms=1978


Pillar of the Community
fortcollins's Avatar
United States
3659 Posts
 Posted 12/13/2025  11:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One of the lines of thought on the high-grade examples not commonly having broken "T"s is that it is usually the first coins struck in a year that people acquire for collections and by rolls, and the "T"s on the hubs broke later in the year. By the time the 1941 broken "T" coins appeared, coins were probably among the last thing on anybody's mind. There are some higher grade examples out there, and some are photographed on the three sites, but they are scarce.

Just from what I'm seeing in the wild, at least half of the Philadelphia 1941 cents are DDOs, the vast majority of them minor: doubled second "T," doubled eyelid, doubled "4" in the date. So many of them are heavily circulated and dinged in ways that make attribution iffy or impossible. I don't have the time (or desire) to spend it trying to attribute an iffy eyelid, so I'm tossing those back into rolls to clear them out. Possibly 10-12% of the total coins are able to be attributed. That's still a lot. The most desired varieties are scarce, and the early stages of those varieties are very scarce in any grade. A few of the varieties are so common that they cause eye rolls when they appear yet again. I'm drowning in DDO-004/1-DO-007s, and they are just getting tossed in a pile so I can pick the nicest looking ones to keep and jettison the rest.

There are so many questions about the 1940 and 1941 cents, and the only answer I can give to these questions is, "I don't know."

Why are there so many Woodies for 1940 and 1941?
Why is the percentage of woodies in Philadelphia cents of 1940 and 1941 so much higher than in Denver and San Francisco cents of those years?
Why are there so many Retained Cuds on 1940-S cents, but far fewer on the other date and mint combinations of 1940 and 1941?
When the "T"s broke in 1941, why didn't the Philadelphia mint simply scrap the dies, make another working hub, and create new dies? They certainly had the equipment, unlike the branch mints.
Did Philadelphia grind down and use a 1940 hub for the second hubbing? If not, why are the "4"s doubled, why does the second "4" look different than the "4" from the first hubbing, and why does the second "4" not fit within the footprint of the first "4"?
Why are so many 1941 Philadelphia die pairs abraded almost to oblivion? What is beneath the abrasions? Why did they abrade both the obverse and reverse dies? And most interestingly, as the dies wear and the underlying issues start to emerge in LDS/VLDS, why isn't there evident die clashing on some of those dies?
Why are there hints of fairly significant doubling on some of the abraded dies (both obverse and reverse)? Why were these dies used at all?

Maybe the answer is simply this. We spend hours looking through microscopes at these coins, but nobody did that in 1941. Held in a hand for commercial purposes, even a coin from a heavily abraded die looks like a coin. The country was trying to recover from the depression, looking at an imminent world war for the second time in 25 years, some goods and food were scarce, jobs were still scarce, and what these coins could buy was far more important than how they looked. And the mint's job was to produce as many circular stamped objects as were needed to keep commerce happening, and saw these cents as that, rather than objects of medallic art.
Pillar of the Community
CoinHI's Avatar
United States
2735 Posts
 Posted 12/13/2025  9:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CoinHI to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the info on this fortcollins. I admire your dedication to this mystery on the 1941 LWC's.

Any opinion on whether this is indeed Class VII Modified Hub Doubling? Wexler's describes Class VII as "This class of doubled die varieties may well be a class with no actual known varieties!"

CC has these all listed as Class VII.
"Pride is yoked with callous behavior, as humility is with compassion." St. Gregory Palamas

Top Finds - 1969-S 1c FS-101 http://goccf.com/t/477681 1976 D WQ FS-101 http://goccf.com/t/382777 - 1968 D 1c FS-801 http://goccf.com/t/422254
Cool clashed dies - 1972 D 1c http://goccf.com/t/429855&SearchTerms=CCL
Struck-In Rim Burr - 1969 S 1c http://goccf.com/t/425587&SearchTerms=burr
Floating (Type II) Counterclash - 1978 D 1c http://goccf.com/t/434991&SearchTerms=1978


Moderator
Learn More...
Dearborn's Avatar
United States
96857 Posts
  Previous TopicReplies: 25 / Views: 1,679Next Topic
Page: of 2

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 1.3 seconds to rattle this change. Forums