VAM Rarity Question

Thanks xshift, I appreciate the kind words, but I am not so sure that I have come anywhere. It feels to me as though I just travel in circles, perpetual deja vu.

As we all have an angel and a devil perched on either shoulder, I try to brush my devil off, but she remains. I shall continue to try to adjust my attitude and diminish my brashness.

It's how we handle our imperfections that helps us not to change, but to grow.

I've done plenty of growing.. and still have a LOT left to do!

If you want to know of a change to the I/R numbers... Just recently the 1923-P VAM-1C "Tail on O" was changed by Leroy from I2-R5 to I4-R6 This was done after I found a collar clashed version of the 1C. Leroy took it upon himself to reanalyze the listing and updated it to IMO a more realistic number. So yes, they do in fact change. Is this done all the time? No. But it does happen.

I understand, I was just answering Lou on her "I would like to hear of some of these examples of rarity scale changes that have occurred, because I am aware of none." statement from page 1.

I don't normally watch TV , but when I do, I prefer TV Land or old black & white movies. Anyway, I saw a couple of commercials today that left tears running down my cheeks and there is no one here to tell it to, except you guys.

The first one was a GIECO ad about the little piggy who cried "wee wee wee" all the way home.

The other one was a Direct TV ad about this Russian guy who surrounds himself gold and the best of everything and has a miniature giraffe that he kisses. (I like the guy's accent).

Please check out these commercials if you have the opportunity. (Maybe I am just too easily amused).

I know there was nothing coin related there, please forgive me.

You're my kinda guy Russ

I understand what you are saying Terry, (I really do). I intuitively perceive truth and sincerity in your words.

You know that I always try to tie things together, a correlation of the relativity thing, and my subliminal stab at all of this was my deep rooted disgust for the insincerity and deceptiveness of certain dealers who asked the questions a year ago on another forum of 'how can we attract new and younger folks into vamming?' So noble, so thoughtful were their efforts to draw young folks to a relatively new and exciting hobby for the good of all.

Horsepucky....These were attempts to lure suckers in so they could sell high dollar R-7s to the ignorant who would find out the hard way that an R-7 VAM is not an R-7 coin. I was asked a week or two ago this same question; 'how can we attract new and younger folks into vamming?' I am still steaming over it.

My main thing is this (to be blunt):

CBH are reviewed by a group of experts (Nuts) every few years, to ensure transparency and accuracy of these rarity ratings. Other denominations are dealt with likewise. Now I fully understand that doing this with vams is virtually impossible, due to the sheer number of varieties. A person's guess then, is touted as fact to the potential newbie. Is this any way to treat anyone you are trying to nurture into vamming? If the rarity ratings are not accurate, they should be eliminated until such time as they can be made accurate.

Vamming is (IMO), a floundering hobby, and it is not the collector like yourself or Alan that causes it to be so. The dealers that exploit the rarity factors to the new and unsuspecting are the very ones who stifle growth in the hobby.
Okay, I have vented now my displeasure with the attempt to gain my support in luring in the innocent for the sole interest of profit from them.

I think that I do understand the conditional rarity thing, although it is not as well publicized.

1878 vam-9 is not a rare coin, but in uncirculated condition is certainly is, because it circulated. 1903-O regardless of variety is not a rare coin in uncirculated condition because they sat in vaults their entire lives immediately after striking. They would be much scarcer in circulated condition.

Some vams are scarcer in EDS than LDS and visa versa depending on just when the particular dies developed clashes, breaks, etc.

Zee, I see the hypocrisy in the hobby, but that hypocrisy is rampant outside of the hobby as well. We live in a pluralistic society, (groups among other groups competing for power). It is a facet of our everyday lives many accept without question. So it is with vamming.

The intent of Leroy Van Allen and A. George Mallis by assigning are (rarity factors) and I (interest factors) was a good faith attempt to quantify vams. The sheer number of varieties and the inability to know how many of a particular VAM there are makes any additional quantifying a difficult and problematic undertaking. Knowledge is dynamic especially with the advent of the internet. Some knowledge particulary pick up points (PUP'S) will not be made available due to the competitive nature of the individuals involved and to the profit motive that drives it.

As I stated earlier, are factors are 'relative rarity' complicated further by conditional rarity.

The 1887-O has been a top 100 coin for thirteen years. It is highly sought after and it is rare. It is a major rarity in mint state condition. PCGS has 9 in mint state 62 with three graded higher. All three higher are mint state 63.

Recently, there was a revision in the listing as a specimen was shown to Leroy Van Allen that did not have as much pitting on the reverse as the plate photo. 1887-O VAM 22 is difficult to locate. VAM 22 only becomes VAM 22 A with the pitting on the reverse. So now there is an early die state (EDS)version of VAM 22A. PCGS calls this specimen a 'minor variety'. So this coin, the revision coin is (so far) the only one located in thirteen years and it is listed as a 'minor variety'.

This is why relative rarity and conditional rarity are so important. Only time will tell. If no other specimens are found, then the EDS is 'likely' an ultra rarity. However, if it does not belong to any of the major players who influence the listings, then the coin might as well have an asterisk beside it, as it becomes noncollectable.

Please understand, third party grading companies only came only came about as there was rampant doctoring of coins. Coins were cleaned, whizzed, altered, artificially toned and on top of that routinely over hyped. That same 'over hype' is with us in vamming.