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VAM Rarity Question

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Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 07/31/2010  8:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I save stuff like that because you were my firstest and my bestest vambuddy, you always will be, and that is very special to me.
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Ozland's Avatar
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709 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2010  8:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think some of the issues with vamming a coin are what are the list-able attributes? For example let's take a 1889-CC VAM 4 and 1889-CC VAM 4A with a clashed E. Roughly 4% of the mintage for 1889-CC was VAM 4. Now I know this is a little hard to wrap your head around but, VAM 4 comes in a clashed and non clashed version. Please remember unless there is a letter transfer, die break (not die crack) or other list able feature, the coin can not receive a new listing.

So here is VAM, non clashed and then clash with a letter E transfer which becomes VAM 4A. As the coin machine keeps churning out coins, due to repeated strikings the clashed E fades away becoming VAM 4 again.

Same thing in circulation happens to VAM 4A with clashed E. As the coin wears and the E can not be seen it reverts back to VAM 4.

VAMs not assigned varieties are coins that have all manner of clash marks and die cracks but nothing significant enough to list.
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 Posted 07/31/2010  8:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not at all hard to wrap my head around Terry. It happened with a lot more disappearing stuff than just clashes. Denticle impressions, chips, gouges, even superficial cracks are subject to obliteration at the hands of the polishing plate as well as of a wearing die.

And then I hear the "experts" speaking of die states (like they have any idea all of this stuff figured out)..... Gimme a break.
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Ozland's Avatar
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709 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2010  8:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Continuing with VAM 4, Let's say someone sees a cotton boll clash that wasn't previously listed although on the discovery coin even though it was likely there at the time when Leroy or George Mallis looked at the coin or perhaps a small die gouge that previously wasn't noted.
Without having the discovery coin to compare against, a revision is likely or even a new listing (for the gouge). This is what I mean by VAMflation and it is an on going issue.
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Ozland's Avatar
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709 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2010  8:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think understanding the different die state progressions of a coin, including clash episodes, subsequent polishing and or improper basinings continues to intrigue and baffle the experts. We individually simply don't have all of the different iterations of a coin.
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 Posted 07/31/2010  8:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Excellent point Oz....I had not considered this, nor did I know he was doing such a thing. His job must be far more detailed and all encompassing than I had imagined. What about these 'plate photos'? I imagine that they are not of high enough resolution to cover cotton boll detail?
Everything vams is probably so tangled up at this point that it may take generations of teams of experts to untangle, and I am not blaming anyone. It is just too big of a task for one man to build upon, subtract from, and keep straight simultaneously. What a mess, but these are the glory days for those who revel in being distinguished with new discoveries and revisions.
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 Posted 07/31/2010  8:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ooooo, I'm late, I gotta go right now. Later guys.
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Ozland's Avatar
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709 Posts
 Posted 07/31/2010  8:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Zee, I see where you liked my 'noble and altruistic' remark. All I can say is I know you are looking for a ruby in a mountain of rocks but there ain't no Coupe Deville hiding at the bottom of a Cracker-Jax box.
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aladinslamp's Avatar
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 Posted 07/31/2010  8:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
no caddy in the box Oz...just they keys!!
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 Posted 08/01/2010  12:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add zeewool to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Right you are Oz, my blood only boiled for about 20 seconds, and then I was fine. I do like rubies, but diamonds are a personal favorite of mine. I'll be you're right about there not being any Coupe De'Ville thing (unless that Cracker Jacks box is pretty old and stale). I don't think they've made De'Villes for several years now. I might wish for a Maserati Gran Turismo S.
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aladinslamp's Avatar
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 Posted 08/01/2010  12:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I guess a GEO METRO is off the table then?
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Ozland's Avatar
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709 Posts
 Posted 08/01/2010  01:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think people mine for rocks sometimes. They make the process too hard. It is difficult enough attributting coins that have what I consider to be minor differences.
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aladinslamp's Avatar
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 Posted 08/01/2010  01:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
that's why knowledge is so important...and it takes so much time..
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Ozland's Avatar
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709 Posts
 Posted 08/01/2010  01:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ozland to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think people have to be cognizant of the fact that VAM knowledge is dynamic and changes as new discoveries are found.

I think the most promising research is to take up research on a series such as 1902-O's and 1904-O's like Alan Scott did. This is where you find duplicate listings. This is also where you see mid die state coins being wrongly attributed because there are not others to compare to.
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aladinslamp's Avatar
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 Posted 08/01/2010  01:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add aladinslamp to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I couldn't agree with you more T..there is a lot to study and define....Cause and effect are only the observations that are in front of us. Not the whole of the series....the series must be studied. in whole to understand it all.
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