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Replies: 49 / Views: 6,083 |
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Valued Member
United States
232 Posts |
Hello, Haven't see this posted yet. Today (Monday, Feb 1) President Obama introduced the fiscal 2011 budget (starts in Oct, 2010). As part of this a document called "Terminations, Reductions and Savings" was also released and is available at www.whitehouse.gov/omb/. It lists a whole bunch of things that are being cut, reduced etc. One of the ideas is to change the composition of US coins. The document states: Quote:OTHER SAVINGS: COINAGE MATERIAL Department of the Treasury The Budget proposes to provide the U.S. Mint with greater flexibility in the material composition of coins to reduce its losses on some coins and the production costs associated with volatile metal prices. Justification The Mint's primary cost driver is the price of metal, a factor over which it has no control. Daily spot prices of copper and zinc, the Mint's two main metallic materials, have fluctuated in excess of 100 percent, and the price of nickel by 500 percent in recent years.1 This contributes to volatile and negative margins on both the penny and nickel: in recent years the penny has cost approximately 1.8 cents and the nickel approximately 9 cents to produce. 2 Costs have exceeded the value of these two coins by over $100 million in prior years. Through its gains on other coins, the Mint annually returns hundreds of millions of dollars to the Treasury General Fund (GF) and is funded by the Mint Public Enterprise Fund. Greater flexibility in the composition of coinage materials could enable the Mint to utilize less expensive metals in the minting process and substantially reduce its production costs. Using alternative coinage materials could save $150 million annually after an initial period of development and capital adjustments. These savings result from increased seigniorage, or the difference between the face value of the coin paid by the Federal Reserve and the cost of production. Seigniorage increases the available means of financing, but has no direct budgetary impact. Specifically, the Budget includes provisions that authorize the Department of the Treasury to approve alternative coinage compositions and weights across five denominations (half dollar, quarter, dime, nickel, and penny). The 2011 Budget would bring the costs of coins more in-line with their face values and create a more sustainable, cost-effective 21st Century use of materials in the minting process. The Budget enables the Department of the Treasury to explore, analyze, and approve new, less expensive materials for all circulating coins based on factors that will result in the highest quality of coin production at the most cost-effective price. Such factors may include physical, chemical, metallurgical and technical characteristics; material, fabrication, minting, and distribution costs; materials availability and sources of raw materials; durability; effects on sorting, handling, packaging and vending machines; and resistance to counterfeiting. The added flexibility the Budget proposes will improve the minting process and enable the Mint to mitigate the high, volatile costs of commodity metals. Citations 1 Global InfoMine, Metals Prices, http://www.infomine.com/investment/metalprices/ (January 2010). 2 USA TODAY, Coins Cost More to Make than Face Value, http://www.usatoday.com/money/2006-...y-usat_x.htm (May 2006). Presumably there will be some actual legislation to follow that specifies the details, but I thought folks on this forum would be interested. Any opinions on this? I am not necessarily opposed as long the new coins are not awful. I am glad to see there is no plan to get rid of the penny. John Paul
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2541 Posts |
With the recent run-up in metal prices, it's pretty much inevitable...
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Rest in Peace
United States
1729 Posts |
Unless the new cent is made of plastic, you can bet that the appropriate changes in the higher-denomination coins will have to offset the cost of minting cents. Note that no mention is made of curtailing the wasteful continued production of dollar coins. (Interesting, too, that the report refers to the "penny", not the cent.)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
968 Posts |
I like that idea. It seems like a fairly painless way to save some tax money, and it isn't like the current coin compositions are anything special. From a numismatic perspective it will be a little sad to see the composition of a nickel change for the first time in its existence (outside the " War Nickel" years). But the benefits outweigh that small negative. P.S. I would LOVE to see this thread stay on topic on the specific proposal and not devolve into a political discussion or cheap shots!
Edited by Saruma 02/01/2010 10:57 pm
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Valued Member
United States
133 Posts |
IMO they can get rid of the cent and Nickel. round everything to 10¢. I hate to say it but they could get rid of the dollar bill too and just use them 1$ coins that everyone hates. I also think that every state should have bottle deposit
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1429 Posts |
Maybe this is what he meant by saying Change :)
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Given the choice, I would pick smaller coin sizes over "less expensive metals". We're pretty familiar with two coinage disasters already--the steel cent and the zinc cent. And, seeing how many other countries have phased out their 1/100 coin, I doubt we really need the cent--but I would still miss it. Coins should be practical and useful--with sizes and denominations adjusted as needed. Many smaller denominations use "aluminum bronze", which I consider a superior alternative to zinc or aluminum.
Edited by DVCollector 02/02/2010 12:31 am
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Valued Member
United States
436 Posts |
steel , tin , aluminium ... or alloys of the three
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Valued Member
United States
436 Posts |
I think that changing the metal will result in a lower life expectancy of coins, which will in turn result in the need for higher mintages. Where the avg life span is 30 years right now.. I think that changing to more corrosion prone metals will drop the life expectancy to around 10-15 years. But I do look forward to 1943 copper cent style accidents.
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Valued Member
United States
473 Posts |
I think this is an absolute horrible idea and a complete waste of the Congress' time.
Think about this logically for a minute. This is a government agency speaking of profit. Why? What other agency or department is asked to make money (no pun intended) for Uncle Sam? I highly doubt the FCC or AFT is asked of such nonsense. This is a public NOT private institution. And the Mint already makes profit!
Look at the wonders the gov't did with the Zincolns we have now. They are an embarrassment to this nation. How many 2008 or 2009 cents have you found that are already garbage - I sure have seen my fair share. Anybody really believe them playing with the alloy again will increase the quality of the coins?
How about just getting rid of the penny altogether if it is such a problem? We, as collectors, certainly would miss it but a highly doubt the public at large would care one bit. It's worthless, unwanted, and just plain annoying to have a pocket full of pennies. To continue producing these is mind-numbing.
If getting rid of it altogether is going to far, perhaps another possible idea -- stop making so many of these coins. If the Mint produced zero cents this year I am pretty sure the economy would not grind to halt. There are so many of these in circulation already that killing of a trillion or two will have no real effect on...well anything. Maybe produce them once every other year? Or cut the annual product in half? Or both.
I'm sorry but debasing our coinage further yet is not the answer.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2270 Posts |
In other words the only way we can keep the penny is if all the coins are made out of zinc.
Time don't fly, it bounds and leaps.
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Valued Member
United States
436 Posts |
the next "bright idea" will be bringing back fractional currency notes
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Moderator
 Australia
16805 Posts |
Quote: Many smaller denominations use "aluminum bronze", which I consider a superior alternative to zinc or aluminum. Aluminium-bronze might look great, but it's mostly made of copper (typically around 90%), so that alloy is definitely out. Quote: steel , tin , aluminium ... or alloys of the three Whatever alternative is selected has to be cheaper than zinc - which is currently priced at $2145/tonne. Tin is currently at $12250/tonne, or $12.25/kg or 1.2 cents/gram; a 1 cent coin made of pure tin would have to be really thin - and tin is too soft to last long in circulation when it's that thin. I'd rule it out as being way too expensive. Aluminium is currently at $2085/tonne, or 0.2 cents/gram - it's still quite usable as an alternative - it's less dense than the other suggested alternatives, so you can get more "coins per tonne" out of it. Aluminium was rejected as a coinage metal for the cent back in 1974 because it looked "too cheap" - it was seen as a metal that only third-world or communist countries used for their coins. I don't think it takes a plating too well, either. Perhaps America's attitude has changed. "Steel" is priced according to what properties you want it to have. I think your typical scrap/mild steel is fetching around $500/tonne (.05 cents per gram) at the moment. As you can see, it's easily the cheapest option around... which is why just about everyone else is using it. Canada, Mexico, New Zealand, the Eurozone, Great Britain, Brazil, South Africa, China, all use mostly steel coinage. Australia, Israel, Japan and Taiwan are some noteworthy economies that haven't (yet) switched to steel; Australia, Japan and Taiwan haven't reformed their currencies in decades and Israel throws away it's entire currency system every decade or so anyway. The great advantage of steel is that you can plate it with just about anything - copper, nickel, brass - so the colour can stay the same. Yet inflation can make even steel coins too expensive to make - just look at the situation in India a couple of years ago, where a single steel 1 rupee coin could be melted down and made into 16 rupees worth of razor blades. All this pricing doesn't include the costs of turning that metal into coin. With precious metal coinage, the cost of manufacture is negligible, but not so for base metal coins. Tin is soft, so is cheap to turn into coin. Steel is hard, and therefore expensive. Quote: Think about this logically for a minute. This is a government agency speaking of profit. Why? What other agency or department is asked to make money (no pun intended) for Uncle Sam? I highly doubt the FCC or AFT is asked of such nonsense. This is a public NOT private institution. And the Mint already makes profit! The mint must make a profit because too many people are ready to take advantage of the government when the mint makes a loss. The government - any government - must make it's coins unattractive to hoarders and coin melters. If the mint doesn't make a profit on every single coin it makes, it's effectively giving the government's money away to the hoarders for nothing. You're not supposed to want to hoard any of the coins, because hoards remove coins from circulation, forcing the government to make even more of them. What's the point of a government making squillions of coins if each and every one of them is snaffled up by people that know they're more valuable than face value? People already hoard your "copper" cents; even the zinc cents and nickels are technically worth hoarding now, and it won't be too long before the dimes and quarters join them.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4867 Posts |
I like plan to change metals. The US Mint could use the same compositions for coins as the Royal Canadian Mint uses.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6326 Posts |
Quote: If getting rid of it altogether is going to far, perhaps another possible idea -- stop making so many of these coins. If the Mint produced zero cents this year I am pretty sure the economy would not grind to halt. There are so many of these in circulation already that killing of a trillion or two will have no real effect on...well anything. Maybe produce them once every other year? Or cut the annual product in half? Or both.
I'm sorry but debasing our coinage further yet is not the answer.  I would have to agree with GFR3. They could save SO MUCH MONEY by not continuing to produce Billions of coins across the boards on ALL denominations......and completely stop production of Native Dollars, Cents, and the Presidential dollars. And after a few years, resume Prez. dollars and do away with the FRN. Just cut "wasteful" unnecessary coinage production first, before "devaluing" our coinage any further ! This would LITERALLY save TONS of money !The Nickel and Dime mintage numbers for last year is "sort of" an example.....but they could have minted MUCH FEWER than even that....and the sun would have still risen tomorrow ! Mint only 25% of all denominations for about 5 years........we'll be fine.......there are still obscene amounts of recent years coins that will last 100 years or more in circulation !
Edited by eaglefoot 02/02/2010 08:53 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2335 Posts |
IMO the government needs to do everything possible to reduce costs, if changing alloys is one of those things I'm all for it.
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Replies: 49 / Views: 6,083 |