Knowledge Is King?

I think in general we did lightly cover the subject after 14 pages I don't think I will re-read it, but in general, the R6 was a die that was supposed to be short lived, so there supposedly are not a ton of those examples lying around, and I believe something was mention some 3500 dies were produced, and 44 mil coins produced..the 21's are very difficult coins to attribute. scribbles being #$%^&^* to figure out. though I find several where the attribution was gouges? in general they were not supposed to be used, but perhaps there is a size factor...with this series it will be sometime befor the smoke clears, and yet who knows when the are ratings will be addressed as it involves every year...one simply has to dive in and learn everything you can about that one year, it takes time and devotion to really know what are the rarer coins of any year, reguardless of the are factor...

The language of the balance of the post causes me to think that this may not be an exactly accurate self assessment.



I don't believe that there is any upper management, but rather a conglomeration of folks who individually decide what they will and will not comment on and share. No one feels any obligation to tell all, and I for one, feel that there is nothing whatsoever wrong with that.



I don't really think that anyone is trying to STOP anyone else from finding coins, they are just not going to shoot themselves in the foot by assisting. It is more like an Easter egg hunt for 45-70 year olds.




I really cannot comment on the Vamworld and the Palace thing as I neither visit or lurk that site, ever (EVER). I do remember the way it 'was', and that is all I am going to say about that as well.

The cohesive community that I referred to earlier was that of the vammers RIGHT HERE on CCF, and I vehemently stand my my words. We are tight and close, and feel comfortable enough with each other to discuss anything under the sun, without much fear of retribution for our words, in which we would be, as you put it, a small renegade band of the "have nots". I prefer to look at it as the knows and the know nots, in which case we are definitely the knows (IMO).




Do yourself a favor: read 'ALL' of his posts, (unless you are afraid you might learn more than you really wanted to).



Post some 'decent' pictures of the beast, and we might be able to speed up the process that you await. The "power players" have learned within the past year to choose their words more carefully (when assessing something that they have no clue of) for fear of being challenged, and subsequently embarrassed by relative 'nobodys'.




You really couldn't prove that by me, that was some pretty complicated stuff you just covered. I would be happy if you would join in more often than you do Ceylon. Just try to lighten up a bit. There is only room for one person to make rash and irrational statements on a continuing basis here, and I have that position covered quite well. I really wish that folks like Scooby and Bryan for instance would join in the fun more than they do. Where is Smitty ? I know that I irritated him before, and I really am sorry for that. I do sincerely miss him.

I can not nor will I debate the merits of scribbles on 1921 dies, that is for others. There has been an unintended consequence though of scribbles. It was the basis for identifying the correct die of 1921-D _rust. This is a filled die that is much sought after. The correct VAM attributted to 1921-D _rust is VAM 1CY.
The 1921-D _rust is also attributted with the 1921-D VAM 1 Ai. This is part of the reason if Leroy Van Allen could, he would delist filled die Morgan and Peace dollars.

Ooo,,,,Ooo.. Finally wrong about something, not just 'might be wrong', but 'very definitely wrong'.....




As a matter of fact, ' I ' have pondered this exact possibility (probability) at great length in the past.

I think that they well could be looked upon as evidence of die state, if anyone could accurately interpret them. Overwriting is a very definite possibility, and would cause whatever these things really are to be eternally misunderstood, unless an archives researcher happened to stumble across documented explanation.

Scribbles may be indirectly hub related, and the notion that they were added for the reason of adding detail to an otherwise open field area never set well with me.

I am more inclined to believe that they 'may' be the end result of a poorly constructed hub curvature, where the field in the bird's leg area might have been created with a profile higher than that in relative radial symmetry of the balance of the die, resulting in inconsistent metal displacement. Grinding of individual dies in this specific area to compensate for this or maybe a similar hub defect seems more rational to me than the accepted theory of design addition.

I sent a 1921-D PCGS MS 61 to Crae Morton (the God of scribbles) because I couldn't identify it. He said he was 100% sure it was an unlisted scribbles, but gave only a 50% probability Leroy would list it.

It was a big surprise when the coin came back as......VAM 1 scribbles. Absolutely no joke here.

I think that it all ties into with what Dave was saying about overwriting of dies with scribbles. The die is the die, but take a die with scribbles, scribble it some more, and viola ! A new die ! Subsequently a new VAM ! Subsequently more problems for future vammers to try to weed out !

Sure, they can (today) be indispensable pups, but does this not indicate that some of these dies were so similar in appearance that they are indistinguishable without these scribbles? I think that if I were Leroy, I would not welcome the headaches of looking at these things, but would rather proclaim them all as 'counterfeits' and be done with it. I think that 21-D 1X is a scribbles variety, and as such could be found another in EDS prior to the Cud via scribbles. Perhaps though the Cud occurred on the first and only coin, perhaps the EDS 1X has no scribbles.

I still like to think that these things were added as general instructions to the mints, and that the instructions may have been less than thoroughly followed through on. I find it interesting that some dies are scribbles dies and some are not. Were the scribbles dies first or did they come after the unadorned dies?

Anybody got any idea what time zone or parallel universe this refers to?