| Author |
 Replies: 103 / Views: 11,650 |
|
|
|
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
 Gene and I started into the VAM thing about two years ago at about the same time, I got frustrated early and gave up, but Gene stuck with it.... for ever so long, we both believed that vams were identified by specific die pairings, but today, this seems to be not the case.... this particular 89 P high 9 is a vam-7 of some sort or stage, but why? My question is: Have the rules changed within the past year from die pairings to die similarities, or has this been the case for quite a while, and we were just oblivious to it? |
|
Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
You deceive yourself to believe that the focus was that tightly-controlled, ever. The "powers that be" have never been able to discern between hub-centric varieties and die-centric varieties, and I ascribe that to their basic intelligence rather than their basic stupidity. They've known; the fallacy is in believing they've told everything that they've known. This is a *big* job, and I am not certain that die varieties are even possible given the available information. Morgans may never be accurately attributed below the level of the hub, and if that's the best we can do, I'm OK with that. Is there *any* differentiation between given Morgan dollar dies of any year, regardless of our ability to discern them today? If anything, information indicates that date placement may be the only possible way. And that will require microscopic examination of a whole_bunch of Morgans, even if it's possible. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
Zee says Quote:
I have one of those new Catia 3-D computers that allows me to tilt and project light at different angles, just like I could if I had coin in hand...... yes, I think that I do see the "n" clash as well as the wing clash. With that image I can see that neck clash clearly as well. Big time kudos to you Zee.     |
|
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
Thanks Dave, that is sorta what I thought.... as a newbie, I was so awed at the ridiculous idiosyncrasies that distinguished one VAM from another, that I had visions of total identification as the very premise for the hobby..... It has been only lately that I am actually able to notice minor differences in these individual dies, and am now equally awed to find that two dissimilar dies are categorized as the same VAM...... This particular '89 high 8 VAM 7 for instance..... I believe that the lone characteristic that lumps the 7A into the 7 family is the high 8 thingy..... Well, to me the 7 is a high 8, but the 7A is a slanted date.... I would say that Bobby's coin is a high 8, vam-7 because it is not a slanted date..... I have seen the line drawn on other vams based on such insignificant details that I wonder who is smokin' what, but in other instances like this one, very little effort is made to distinguish fairly noticeable differences.... I'm just now coming to grips with the reality of what I consider to be inconsistencies of notable proportion in this game. |
|
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
I sure hope that you had an enormous grin on your face when you made that post Oz.
|
|
Valued Member
United States
220 Posts |
Terry, you should know better than that. The subject coin is not clashed. The nice photo ZW posted can't be real. One thing is for certain, geometry is a science, and it doesn't lead you astray if you follow it.
If the photo ZW posted is real, then there were multiple die clash episodes, which also clearly do not show on the subject coin.
There really is a valuable lesson on this coin, if only folks would recognize it and embrace it.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
I did not mean to be devious guys... as a matter of fact, I really didn't think for one second that anyone could consider the photo to have the slightest degree of authenticity..... Copy & paste the OP's coin, spend a couple of minutes with microsoft paint, and cartoonish clashes are born.... I thought the "n" came out a little strong.
|
|
Valued Member
United States
220 Posts |
ZW, it was a great photo to show how things can't be. If folks would study clashed dies, the rotation involved (if any), think about fields versus devices, and when letter transfer occurs and when it doesn't, how and when radial offset occurs, and what clash marks will happen when that happens, then your photo just did not make sense.
That being said, I still say this thread provides a great lesson in Vamming, most of which has been mentioned above, but seemingly has been glossed over by some.
|
|
Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Procul Harem, A Whiter Shade of Pale.
We read too much into this. We're hardwired to do it; the only way to be "into it" is to overdo it. It's not "all or nothing," it's "over the top or nothing." So, the best amongst us recognize and achieve perspective when the rest of us don't.
There ain't a darn thing in the discussion of this coin that will change the face of VAMming. The best this thread, and this coin, will ever do is contribute another drop into the ocean we need to fill. And maybe the best lesson taught is about the potential for overthinking stuff which is actually simpler than you're trying to achieve.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
709 Posts |
I am laughing so hard it hurts. The clash location in Zee's coin was wrong, but she clearly gets an "E" for effort. Besides that was my first try at oranges, apples and peppers. But that was probably too subtle.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
5632 Posts |
Zee States" In the case of a Morgan, the area below BUS above Anna's head is outside the clash ring, so is an impossibility as far as a clash goes......" Zee, My friend,You have come a very long way in this area of Vams, I have since you wrote this statement been looking through some Morgans I have and would direct your attention to the 1888-O top 100 VAM 1A clashed "E", I have in pcgs MS-62, above the Phrygian Cap on Anna's head, below the letters "BUS", actually stemming out of the cap upwards almost to the letters are a wonderful example of a crisp clear clash of many things, what I believe to be some bow parts and the partial letter O from the mint mark,under the letter B, among other things like the clashed letter E on the reverse. I point this out because I had mentioned I had seen things clashed in the mentioned areas before, I also mentioned earlier, knowing this coin was a known die, but not an apparent, IMO 'known' die state, and still believe I see a clashing on areas involved on this coin, in more than one area. I just wanted to let you know about the possibitities of things we sometimes believe are not possible, clearly are.......  I was clearly wrong, this topic looks to have some life in it still, educational and informative for those who are open to the lessons ......My self included.....  PS, Zee Check out the plates on VamWorld to see the clashing I speak of on the 1888-O VAM 1A Morgan...... Edited by Morgans Dad
04/03/2011 02:22 am
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
I'm still thinking of what this coin be/// April fools and all of the overlays..and discussion...AND a grand time to review such things...think on this.....WHY WOULD bobbie post a common no nothing VAM, IF not to get us into the game? I would... |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
3076 Posts |
OH BY THE WAY...you are correct Zee...when we started...VAMS were this understanding that die marriages the reason of the numbering system.... which is FUBAR..as the discoveries are never in the correct order.. Since the early 70's... the Fundumental theory was the die marriage... which differentiates the VAM listings... even then we knew that there were flaws... AND that thee where NEW numbering systems in the backround to supposedly correct this,,,,,,HOWEVER,, the TPG'S have bought into this vamming thing and you can't re-invent the wheel..CHANGE.. THE TPG's MONEY thats on the line..... BUT YOU CAN...alter the way the die marriages don't add up.....PROTECT the investments of those already invested in by creating THE NEW.....;...... DIE CLASSIFCATION...system....You see idea does not discredit the old system or listings..And its faults, but allows new findings to have a place without CHANGING the old system...we can now have minor changes VAM by VAM...by which, small changes are accepted compared to the whole system.... NOTICE.....how all of the pages now read......multiple die's may exist for the same VAM....not exact but you get my meaning... those coins don't have the die poop to discern them to a particular VAM... I still work with the old ideas..I am discouraged by the new Ideas which have no foundation but expand something new into something old with few rules.....as rules should be CONCRETE SAD to say the die classification is SAVIOR of vamming..... |
|
Pillar of the Community
3660 Posts |
VfM has already pointed out to me that my notion of die radius is not all encompassing (and possibly just plain wrong), and now you too provide your own evidence to that end, and although I cannot discern the exact features that you speak of, I will certainly take your word for it.... I am no coin expert by any stretch of the imagination Mike.
I do have to wonder though, about the cause for each of these clashes in what I consider to be abnormal locations... were these the results of dies that were basined with a deformed polishing plate? The apparent lack of die convexity is counter intuitive to my idea of what should or could be found.
I think that maybe we are victims of our own expectations Gene.... Dave verifies that you and I saw things through rose colored glasses, and that these things never actually were the way that we remember them to be.... classification was the rule then as now, but we saw only what we wanted to see, (and that was 'the die is the die')..... it was a rather Utopian notion (even for dreamers like us).
|
|
Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
I would much prefer that Morgans be classified by die. It's the "right" way to classify coins. In the case of Morgans, almost certainly not possible and you've played a large role in my realizing this, zeewool.
Heck, even hub-level classification will likely require 60x magnification of every single coin which doesn't lack "smoking gun" pickups. If it can be done. The preparation technology of this period was too far advanced.
|
| |
Replies: 103 / Views: 11,650 |
First Page
Previous Page
Posted 04/02/2011 11:31 pm
