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Danzig 1927 Forgery - High Quality

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United States
14463 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2013  02:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Fuzzy317 to your friends list
In this context, bogus is another word for fake.
Valued Member
Romania
86 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2013  02:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bogdanjovi to your friends list
Hard to tell just from image... I am anxious to see the verdict.
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Luxembourg
588 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2013  09:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add maudry to your friends list
I have compared the pics with a few genuine coins found on the net and many details that differ:
The dots in the I of Danzig and ü of fünf are much smaller on this one.
The mane of the lions doesn't seem right, as well as the fur on the legs.
The rim isn't of uniform width.
...
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Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2013  09:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list
Compared with my coin, the windows of the building are poorly imitated. Is it a cast counterfeit?
Danzig-1927-Forgery---High-Quality

Danzig-1927-Forgery---High-Quality
Pillar of the Community
Canada
3167 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2013  10:10 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add noahs-numismatics to your friends list
Like cashforcoins said, the 'd' just doesn't look right.
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United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2013  5:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
The coin is a struck counterfeit made from false engraved dies. This appears to be executed in an eastern European style by artists who copy coins from photographs and do not use any mechanical or digital means of image transfer. This school normally manufactures ancient coins which do have these kinds of variations but for hubbed coins - that no longer occurs.

There is ZERO chance the coin in the photos is original. The question is why.

The best place to view an original is by going to one of the websites like Heritage and finding a high grade example of an original and then reviewing the coins side by side on the computer screen. In this case I found a high grade MS-63 slabbed by PCGS on the Heritage web site archive. That took under 1 minute.

Here is the coin:

Danzig-1927-Forgery---High-Quality

The counterfeit version of this coin is remarkable because of the nature of the errors that are actually present in the dies. They are far from insignificant. I will not review both dies here but for those interested there is an entirely missing window on the other side. That is a rare omission so I chose this side because it is more typical of this school of forgery and the errors they typically produce.

The pictures are reduced here, but at home I am using a much enlarged pair of photos to compare. Roughly 1/4 of the coin is visible at one time on the screen when set side by side.

This is the upper left quadrant of the counterfeit. You need to imagine it much larger.


Danzig-1927-Forgery---High-Quality

Now compare that to the same quadrant on the PCGS coin.


Danzig-1927-Forgery---High-Quality

Now look at the lion's wrist area resting on the shield. On the forgery the line forming the top of the arm passes the corner of the shield a significant distance from the corner at a low angle but on the original it is MUCH closer to the corner and is far steeper.

On a hubbed coin this is enough proof to establish a forgery beyond all doubt. But I will continue.

Then count the number of lines on the Lion's right paw. The one holding the top of the shield. On the forgery the third finger nearest the "thumb" is outlined on both sides but on the original it is not outlined there past the knuckle. On the original it looks far more like the edge of a finger as it appears on a human hand.

The left paw is no better. The lines dividing the fingers are entirely different. The original displays tapering curves with the top dividing line clearly longer and heavier than the lower. On the forgery they are of equal thickness along their entire length, the counterfeit lines are less curved and they are almost perfectly identical in length.

The outline of the left paw including the hair hanging down is shown is substantially different (cruder) on the counterfeit than it is on the original.

I could of course go on and on but you get the picture. When you compare pictures closely using split screen there are DOZENS of similar errors. I think I counted 20 on this side alone without spending more than 5 minutes.

Writing up the opinion with proof takes ten times as long as spotting the problem.

What I am outlining is a process of "due diligence" as I interpret it. A collector should do exactly what I have just demonstrated before EVER buying a coin from anyone - ebay especially. The operative policy of ebay is "Let the buyer beware". That policy is a good one. All collectors should avail themselves of the technology and information available on the internet as use it appropriately.

If that happened about 99% of the forgery on ebay would be self evident.

I am not saying any of this to toot my own horn - anyone can do what I have done here by just employing measurement techniques and information that I have already passed on.

When I learned the business we used pictures and drafting implements to check. It was far slower but now the capability is within the grasp of EVERY SINGLE one of you.

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Australia
2830 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2013  7:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Peter THOMAS to your friends list
thankyou.
the fake lion has mickey-mouse paws !
and the absent window is a good clue, not to mention the numerous other points of detail that you mention.
I enjoy your posts.
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Canada
3167 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2013  8:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add noahs-numismatics to your friends list
Hmm, interesting.
Thanks for the info!
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Hong Kong
1270 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2013  9:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wonghinghi to your friends list
Swamperbob, thank you for telling the origin of this counterfeit coin. But why do you say "this school"? Do you mean there is a specilized group of forgers making ancient or modern counterfeits in eastern Europe? I have no comments on the technique of the die engraved but what I see the lustre of this coin, it does not look like to be make by silver, the pressure pressed on the coin looks not deep enough.
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 03/03/2013  10:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
A school of forgery is like a school or type of artist. People following a similar technique as said to belong to a certain school.

At the same time, there are several "schools" in eastern Europe that actually train forgers (artists) in the manufacture of historical artifacts.

One of the distinctions that needs to be drawn is that these replicas are usually not illegal to produce in their respective countries of origin. The purpose of the variations can at times get them off the hook legally on charges of counterfeiting in other places.


Valued Member
Romania
86 Posts
 Posted 03/04/2013  02:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bogdanjovi to your friends list
Nice learning, swampbob! Thank you!
Looking over the images posted (excluding the forgery) looks like there are two types of dies. It can be seen that one has the star above the shield almost touching it, while the other one and the one presented in Krause has a bigger distance between them. Any opinion about this?
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 03/04/2013  02:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
The proof and business hubs were slightly different with the proof hub having a slightly larger separation between the star and the top of the shield.

The business strikes have a clearly closer orientation which is effected by the depth of set on the hub.

A working die is produced from a hub or master die. In this case the features involved - the point on the shield and the star both have sides that taper outward tword each other. The deeper the image is the closer the points appear to be.

Therefore some difference in the apparent gap can occur simply by the way the working die was hubbed or the coin was struck.

Those variations are the normal range of tolerance that has to be understood to authenticate a coin.

But the features I was using are clearly different and have NOTHING to do with hubbing differentials. What I was poimting out were significant differences in style and designs.
Valued Member
Romania
86 Posts
 Posted 03/04/2013  09:17 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bogdanjovi to your friends list
Please do not get me wrong, I did not contested in any way the demonstration of the non authenticity. I was just curios about that difference I noticed (studying your quiz, let's say).
Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 03/04/2013  12:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list
bogdanjovi I was not upset at all by the question. I just wanted to make sure that the reason why the star point position was not a great indicator was very clear.

Usually when one person asks a question like that it means 10 have not but wonder the same thing.

I commend you for checking the situation closely you should always challenge the "facts" to make sure that they stand up to scrutiny.

I know I can come across very authoritatively at most times. I have been doing this so long that I sometimes forget I am speaking to many people who view this material as brand new.

Sorry if my answer made you feel uneasy at all.

Valued Member
Romania
86 Posts
 Posted 03/04/2013  1:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bogdanjovi to your friends list
No problem at all, sir. I was not referring to the star - shield distance as a criteria for identifying a fake. But I thought it was a variant not related to proof/circulating status. I must said it is the first time I run into such a clear exposure of a forgery regarding a modern coin.
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