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Collapse In Gold Prices And Coins

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 Posted 07/20/2015  8:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add terry8835 to your friends list
Trying to play the precious metals market is a sucker's game. Buying coins for numismatic value is not a sucker's game because just like all rare and beautiful objects somebody is willing to pay for them. Just watch Antiques Roadshow. Those values fluctuate as well.
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 Posted 07/20/2015  8:50 pm  Show Profile   Check Pacificoin's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Pacificoin to your friends list
It is hardly a crash in prices. What is going on right now is flight to the USD, nothing else. Gold and silver prices have hardly changed in all the other rapidly devaluing currencies.
A great analogy is you got off the Titanic safely and into a leaky life boat. This will NOT end well.
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 Posted 07/20/2015  11:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list
I'd say it's a slow moving reaction to the drop in oil prices. Lower revenue for OPEC means selling assets like gold to pay the bills.

And rare bullion coins will go down too IMO. They're saleable assets too.
"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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 Posted 07/21/2015  2:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list

Quote:
I understand why the coins of the 1920's can be so expensive but I don't understand why a coin with only 22,000 mintage is not much more expensive than one with 500,000.

Because high values for low mintage coins depends on a base of collectors that COLLECT the series. The number of people who collect Saint Gaudins double eagles by date and mint is very small and a mintage of 22,000 that was actually released into circulation is large enough to easily supply them. So demand as a date/mint is no more higher for it than for the 500,000 mintage coin. Low mintage with low demand still equals low price.




Quote:
As bullion prices go lower, I expect to see the spread (premium for coins) increase as in the past. We never seem to be able to get a break during these smack downs.

Coins tend to rise at the same time as rising metal prices (lest they sell for less than metal price), but they do lag when metal prices fall. But if the metal price go down and STAY down, the coin prices eventually do follow them back down as well.
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 Posted 07/21/2015  5:22 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list
For a SG$20, most people who already want one, have one, or are not in a position to add one to their collection at the moment; either which way, demand is relatively unchanging and level. Since the supply is finite and available, there's no price rollercoaster.

The numismatic value far outpaces the bullion value for pretty much any SG$20. If a given date example was $1500 with gold at $1000 an ounce, and gold fell off a cliff to $250 an ounce, it doesn't mean the coin would suddenly drop in value to $375!

Compare this to, say, circulated silver modern coinage such as Washington quarters. For the common dates, prices below XF tend to follow spot silver/bullion. If you have a roll of average-circulated common date silver Washington quarters (currently worth $107 spot) and the price of silver falls by half, you now have a roll worth $53.50. The numismatic value of the coins is not greater than their bullion value.

There is a notable case: supply manipulation. Let's take a theoretical date of a popular, collectible silver coin with a mintage of 35,000,000 and a current bullion value of $10 in VF-20 and lower. Of those 35m, let's pretend that 10 million are still around in VF-25 or better, 20 million are VF-20 or under (i.e. junk silver) and 5m are unaccounted for. The value chart might look something like this:

G4-F12-VF20-XF40-AU50-MS60-MS65-MS67
10-10-10-30-50-75-115-240

with a VF-25 or better coin being at least twice as scarce as a VF-20 or lower grade example (20m vf-20 or lower left vs. 10m vf-25 and higher.)

An average coin dealer might have a junk silver tray or bin with a couple hundred of these theoretical coins in it, for sale at or just above the bullion price of $10. They might get sold to cull or type coin collectors, and a few will get melted, but most just sit there.

Next year, suddenly, without warning or reason, the bullion price jumps to $30 for that same hypothetical coin in bullion grades. Now every dealer is selling what they can out of that original junk tray and melting the rest, cashing in on the profits. Their MS, AU and XF examples of those coins are still sitting in their slabs (and correspondingly way more expensive) but they're melting those VF-20 and lower junk coins like nobody's business. In fact, they manage to melt 10 million of the 15 million originals that were left in VF-20 or lower condition before the price of silver drops down out of the stratosphere..no, crashes, really, back down to $10 bullion value for our hypothetical coin. Now that they're so doggone cheap, you decide to put together a nice circulated type set of those coins in, say, VF-20 condition, get that Dansco completed at last.

Only one problem. You can't find a lot of those formerly-$10 coins in VF-20 easily anymore. In fact, not in VF-20, nor any lower grade. Your dealer has slab boxes full of MS and AU examples for those coins, but if you want a nice, clean VF example you're going to be paying much closer to XF prices for it than you would have before. Across the country, collectors everywhere come to the realization that you just came to: that's one tough coin in circulated condition!

Now your value chart looks like this:
G4-F12-VF20-XF40-AU50-MS60-MS65-MS67
30-35-40-65-75-95-130-350

with a VF-20 or lower grade coin now being at least twice as scarce as a VF-25 or better example, thanks to melting. (5m VF-20 or lower grade coins left of the 35m minted vs. 10m VF-25 and higher.)

Those profit-hungry melters just created a date rarity for that date in circulated condition. Those VF20's and under are now surprisingly scarce, and correspondingly more expensive. More unfortunately for collectors, the higher grade coins went up, as well, because people who want to buy one in ANY grade are having to now buy those XF and MS examples (not only are they more available than your VF-20's, the price premium between, say, XF-45 and MS-65 is no longer nearly as steep as it used to be, meaning people start upgrading existing coins in their sets!)

Just some random "speculation" :)
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"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Edited by paralyse
07/21/2015 5:28 pm
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 Posted 07/21/2015  5:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list
Gold is financial insurance for an uncertain future, it is not an investment.
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 Posted 07/21/2015  5:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Buymyemu to your friends list
Sooo.....

In the last Silver spike, we lost tons of junk silver coins to smelters?

And no way to measure?

Might be a good project for an intern, survey coin dealers, cash for gold people as to what and how many they melted in the last 10 years.

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 Posted 07/21/2015  6:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list
Not tons. Highly unlikely!

In reality, smelting doesn't make too much of an effect on values unless it's massive and very obvious - no one knows how many coins were left to begin with, nor can they say how many exactly got melted.

After all, Morgan dollars were melted down by the millions, but the average forum reader here probably has at least one, if not dozens, in their collections.

Melting down coins isn't really worth the time or effort unless you've invested in a lot of junk bullion for cheap and the price goes fairly high, and a lot of coin collectors and dealers both are fundamentally opposed to melting ANY coins, valuable or otherwise. :)

I'm sure some silver coins got melted when bullion was up, and have been grabbed by preppers when the market is down, but those are coins of which tens or hundreds of millions were struck, and supply in any grade is sufficient to supply demand for a very long time.

The main times when smelting has a big impact on coin prices are when the government is doing the smelting ( Morgan dollars) or the price of silver gets so high that many formerly-common dates become scarce (the Hunt bubble.) Even if you smelted 20,000 pounds of Washington quarters or Roosevelt silver dimes, there'd still be millions upon millions left. Sometimes, the scarcities created are not known until many years later (Morgans, again) and the discovery of large vaults, hoards, or inventory hitting the market can counteract previous melting (Morgans!)

Melting down coins can also be counter-productive since it takes metal that was out of the market (held in collections or inventory) and puts it back in the market, increasing the supply of that metal available, which tends to moderate rising prices.
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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 Posted 07/21/2015  6:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list
Incidentally, in the event of a financial collapse, you can keep your (valuable but not very useful) silver and gold coins; I'd rather have medicine, water, food, and ammunition (useful but not very valuable.) Starving to death, being sick, and being dehydrated while anarchists loot your undefended property is not a good way to go out, unless you plan to throw the coins at the anarchists, eat the coins, or try to compound them into medicines.
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"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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 Posted 07/21/2015  7:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thecoinguy1964 to your friends list
I have water, I have food, I have ammunition, I have toilet paper, and yes I have silver. All will get me through a shutdown of some sorts. Heck if it's gets much worse than that, dare I care to survive? I'm 51, and I expect worse times ahead, if the US debt is ever taken seriously, as it should, it'll make Greece look like child's play. I've accumulated silver yes, because the paper money won't be worth the paper it's printed on.
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 Posted 07/21/2015  7:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list
TP trumps all. No TP = miserable existence for sure!
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"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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 Posted 07/21/2015  7:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tpg22 to your friends list
In 2001 and 2002 you could purchase common MS63 Saints for around $450-500. A quick search on Heritage will show this. It will take time but chances are as gold moves down so too will common Saints. It will be interesting to watch over the next month to see if the quick $100 per oz drop does anything. I'm hoping we test $800-900 and $10 silver.
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 Posted 07/21/2015  7:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list
If silver drops to $10 I'm buying a litteral ton of it. Or as close as I can get
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 Posted 07/22/2015  10:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list

Quote:
In 2001 and 2002 you could purchase common MS63 Saints for around $450-500.

But in 1979 and 80 they would have cost you $1200 or so because gold was much higher. So the Saint Gaudens DO track up and down with metal prices, but like I said they track down slower than they do going up.
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 Posted 07/22/2015  4:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add terry8835 to your friends list
I used to go to auctions and buy silver bowls, trays etc for just the spot price of silver. It was amazing that I would just multiply the oz's of silver by the spot price and come out with a pretty good result many times. I should have just stacked it up in my storage room, but I just bought and sold it. If you want to make a large pile of money into a small pile of money just play the bullion market. In 2009 it collapsed right along with the stock market and the housing market.
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