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1942(P) Type 1 Jefferson Nickel: Possible DDO?

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Rest in Peace
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 Posted 09/12/2017  12:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list
Now that pix shows a definite CCW direction hub doubling with a reverse direction MD or die attrition, which I suspect is why the flow lines are so prominent. This MD shows to right of devices, doubling shows to the left lower and right upper. Looks to be a Class 1 + 6 rotated and distended hub doubling in CCW/NE direction, guessing pivot point around the last T in TRUST. After again looking at the VV listing above, it can't be that one, rotation wrong. I'll do some checking later...



Try this one for size:http://varietyvista.com/04a%20JN%20...2PDDO004.htm

Think what you have is a mule, the obverse die that made yours was continued to be used when they switched over to silvers and different reverse dies. I see too many similarities on shape of details, bottom of N, shape of lower E, date is almost identical. This may explain such drastic flow lines on yours and loss of detail on silver due to further use and repair. I would send this to Wexlers and have him further determine, include these notes too.

Edited by Crazyb0
09/12/2017 1:11 pm
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 Posted 09/12/2017  1:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TNG to your friends list
I looked in my best of the Jefferson doubled dies book and did not see anything to attribute this to but that last image shows some promise. I don't see anything on the date except maybe at the base of the 1.
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 Posted 09/12/2017  1:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mark1959 to your friends list
Definitely see the notching - any doubling on the nose area?
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 Posted 09/12/2017  2:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Errers and Varietys to your friends list
It is a real Doubled Die as I can see notching on the T in Trust. Also shows MD or DDD.
Errers and Varietys.
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 Posted 09/12/2017  7:08 pm  Show Profile   Check spru's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spru to your friends list
Thanks for the responses. I'll look more into that '42-P DDO you linked to, Crazyb0. I didn't really consider any of the silver DDOs but I assume it's possible for this die to have been used on silvers.

I'll see if I can get some pics with less shadow and glare in important areas and try to match any markers. If it were a match to the -004, then I guess that one is the "mule" and mine would be the original.
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 Posted 09/12/2017  11:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list
Good sleuthing there Crazyb0
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 Posted 09/13/2017  12:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
I see no hub doubling. Just Die Deterioration and MD. Nothing doubled.
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 Posted 09/13/2017  1:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list
Oops, think we all have egg on our faces now!



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 Posted 09/13/2017  6:25 pm  Show Profile   Check spru's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spru to your friends list
Thanks coop.

It's in my album now so, either way, it's not going anywhere!
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In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020
In Memory of T-BOP 10-12-1949 to 1-19-2024
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 Posted 09/13/2017  6:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mark1959 to your friends list
So if it's not a type of DD can anybody address all the little notches in the letters? Never saw that before on a normal minted coin.
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 Posted 09/13/2017  10:55 pm  Show Profile   Check spru's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add spru to your friends list

Quote:
can anybody address all the little notches in the letters?


I would be interested in knowing as well.
In Memory of Crazyb0 12-26-1951 to 7-27-2020
In Memory of Tootallious 3-31-1964 to 4-15-2020
In Memory of T-BOP 10-12-1949 to 1-19-2024
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 Posted 09/14/2017  11:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coop to your friends list
A message from a fellow coin family member about this thead:
[quote[Hi Richard
Thanks for responding to Spruett's 1942 nickel post. Can you explain it a bit further to me, still a bit confused. On his redone second pic I do see a definite indication of notching. Is this then a strike motion/movement or product of Die Deterioration? To me, this looked hub doubled but was strange because of die state. Thanks.
Butch Lindahl[/quote]
I thought I would share it here on the forum as others may have wondered what I saw as not hub doubling.

Sometimes MD can mimic hub doubling. But on hub doubling there should be a spread/enlargement of the devices. When you look at these images, you see enlargement from the die wear distorting the overall shape of the devices. (especially in the direction towards the rims) But what looks like a notching, does not enlarge the device. That should happen on a doubled die. MD will only alter the devices by reducing them. If there is evidence of other areas of the devices being affected by MD, then it is save to bet that the areas showing not showing MD, can be masking to look like MD. On the image I have of MD you can see that the MD is not the same on all the devices.
1942P-Type-1-Jefferson-Nickel:-Possible-DDO?
MD can alter each device because of the die swing/movement during the strike. On hub doubling you see sometimes a uniform movement of the devices:
1942P-Type-1-Jefferson-Nickel:-Possible-DDO?
Notching is also a uniform thing, but can vary, but overall can be the same then taper on later devices.
1942P-Type-1-Jefferson-Nickel:-Possible-DDO?
Note how the hub doubling enlarges the devices on this image above.
1942P-Type-1-Jefferson-Nickel:-Possible-DDO?
Note how the nothing is seen on several parts of the devices, not on the corners of one area like the one on the thread.
1942P-Type-1-Jefferson-Nickel:-Possible-DDO?
This is a tripled die, so the doubling will be harder to see on all the devices. But you can see enlargement of the devices compared to a normal coin. (note the area of the devices next to the rim? You can see they are enlarged.

So if the area is showing notching, it may be MD if other areas of the coin is showing MD. But if it is a doubled die, you should see the devices enlarged, not reduced on the over all look of the devices. Hope this helps?
Edited by coop
09/14/2017 11:30 am
Rest in Peace
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 Posted 09/14/2017  1:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Crazyb0 to your friends list
Thanks, Coop! As always, spot on!

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 Posted 09/14/2017  1:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Mark1959 to your friends list

Quote:
Thanks, Coop! As always, spot on!


Indeed, much easier to understand now.
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 Posted 09/16/2017  9:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Earle42 to your friends list
Thanks Coop - That explains how I mistook it for DDO with MD. Always great learning from you.
How much squash could a Sasquatch squash if a Sasquatch would squash squash?
Download and read: Grading the graders
Costly TPG ineptitude and No FG Kennedy halves
https://ln5.sync.com/dl/7ca91bdd0/w...i3b-rbj9fir2
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