Mexico War Of Independence Silliness

Honestly - although this is wrong and everything is MODERN and being in WOI stuff now for over the last 10 years the average buyer of this material is very advanced. We can see this gang ringing it up. I would be surprised with any outsider coming IN at these prices - Portraits and Cobs - different story of course - every WEEK we see someone taken.

Back to WOI buyers - Even if we look at that Stacks Sale a couple of years back in November, 2012 (i.e. rumor was it was the Guttag Brothers stuff?) and that cryptic cataloging by Stacks and their unusual group lots of WOI low denomination type silver! - NOTHING WENT BY UNNOTICED. NOTHING. These guys are VERY well trained/educated at this LEVEL of Merchandise. My only problem is training this group to LIKE contemporary circulating counterfeits!

See here:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Extremely-...100675.m4236

Its not easy keeping that ebay seal. Some people just don't know however ... and they are honest.

I'm sorry but I can be a little slow on the uptake sometimes. What are they doing? Are they creating their own prices by bidding up up up with a couple of bidders that are in on it? Then someone ONLY going by what these sold for in the past on ebay are going to bid higher than they should... For a fake nonetheless because the seller has great feedback?

Is that Barber dime also fake?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/USA-KEY-PI...047675.l2557

John, glancing back at that now as I write... as I am not one of said advanced buyers (and you're right about that - these ebay pieces wouldn't fool any of the dedicated types):

Are you saying (RE: Stack's Ponterio Nov. 2012) that everything sold well and nothing fell through the cracks cheap (which is what it LOOKS like with my limited knowledge in this area?)... or implying that there was some iffy material in there that the market sniffed out?

Regarding this group of forgeries - My comments were directed at the first 10 Mexican War of Independence coins. That number of frauds were (at least before March 2013) enough to get a suspension of a seller for 30 days if not permanent. All auctions would have been stopped - good along with bad and fees would be retained. We were not obligated to demonstrate that all the items were fraudulent to have this action taken. A group of 10 was more than adequate to remove 100 or more listings as a warning.

It is quite common to have even the worst sellers mix inexpensive genuine coins with trash. That gave them something to complain about when they were terminated. So some of these items "may" be genuine. I believe there are 25 obvious forgeries in the WOI group, I believe the proof patterns are better called "replicas" and the less expensive paper money (items) may be real. The 1832 Zacatecas 500 Peso bills are IMO fakes. The Iturbide is likely a cast copy. The counter stamped Pillar 8R is probably bad as well (cast host) - the stamp certainly is fake.

The Barber dime is ? The pictures are poor and the coin was shill bid by 305 above where it should have been. The coin looks like a G-4 to me. So even if genuine the buyer was ripped off by a factor of 2X.

paxbrit You are absolutely correct. Greed on the part of the buyers is a driving force that keeps the numismatic forgers in business. If something is too good to be true, it usually is. There are few bargains on ebay.

coloneljohn The example you posted is a fantastic example of a terrible copy being offered for a bargain basement price of only $2,500 which makes the coins of vazar.mx look like great deals. This particular forgery type was included in a group of nearly 50 WOI fakes I bought from Richard Long about 15 years ago that were at one time owned by Virgil Hancock (former ANA President and author of a column on counterfeit coins that I followed as a kid). This specific variety (an obvious poorly cast copy) was exhibited by Mr. Hancock at the 1970 ANA show in New Orleans. So it has been around for about 50 years.

Regarding feedback of this seller - all of his feedback comes as a buyer - at least as of today and he certainly raves about the purchases from centsles. Anyone know a good eye specialist for Mr. Vazar?

Odd all around VERY ODD.

But since we are and I am running out of wise cracks - I will just wish the group better hunting in the future.

spruett001 You are correct I hit Search Seller Feedback in error. He has 14 sales feedbacks and 82 as a buyer. There are several positives for items that are fakes. The buyers can't tell in hand?

Lucky Cuss You ask:




I have not seen any WOI numismatic forgeries in TPG slabs. At least not yet. However, I would still advise caution when working with varieties that were not well documented before the 1960-1970 time frame.

There were some WOI types, both silver and copper, that came from the US in the 1960's. At least that was the common belief at the time. These came in two general types the crude cast type with surface pores and some struck forgeries made with fairly decent replica dies. Some of the Hancock collection are actually copies of the type that my mentors attributed to the US back in the 1960-1975 time frame.

Chinese 8R copies we were aware of before the mid 1970's were horrifically crude and never contained silver. Most were magnetic, badly underweight and often had plain or reeded edges. However, once again, I was not aware of WOI types being made in China back then. They were making "tourist" type copies to sell to gullible tourists.

I am definitely aware of copies of SUDs that were created in Mexico and elsewhere (except China) when these were trading for under $5 each. Again one of my mentors in Mass said he knew of a forger making these copper SUDs in the Attleborough, Mass area. The planchets were sawn from round copper bars, filed and hammered out of round. The dies were cut some by hand others with power tools. The coins were "stamped" on hydraulic presses and the end product was "cured" in horse manure. He also indicated that he believed some of the varieties he sold in his shop were recently made in Mexico as well. He said some buyers loved the "new varieties" and snapped them up as fast as he could get them in. I believe that XRF identification of trace contaminants will be the solution to divide the genuine from the modern forgeries.

Finally there is, (in my opinion), a class of contemporary debased silver counterfeits of Royalist issues (in particular Zacatecas types) that were likely made by Rebel forces in Mexico. I would theorize they were made for the purpose of damaging the reputation of the Royalist issues at the US mint. During the War and after the US mint had a buy order for Royalist Mexican 8Rs because they were high in gold content. I have not yet developed a fool proof method of dividing the two types because there is some variation in all of the coins.

How appropriate.