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1921-S Buffalo Nickel.....you Vs. PCGS

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Pillar of the Community
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 Posted 12/04/2020  6:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kanga to your friends list
The usual weak strike.
Tough to grade.
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 Posted 12/04/2020  6:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Slider23 to your friends list
I am going to go with 58 as there appears to be some circulation rub and the coin is not showing much luster.
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 Posted 12/04/2020  9:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list
Lovely reverse....so much to learn about these buffs from year to year and location minted... however put me in the MS camp
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 Posted 12/04/2020  10:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list
A bit of spread in opinions, as I expected . Will post results tomorrow evening.
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 Posted 12/04/2020  10:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list
Finally back home, with time to look closely at this 1921-S.

The obverse is EDS. The rims are sharp and intact. The second feather rachis and calamus are complete. LIBERTY is bold. Both ribbons and the date and designer's initials are bold. Despite the early die state, there has been moderate polishing to reduce evidence of the die clashes. Note the heavy polishing lines beneath the Indian's chin (chin/EPU clash), east of the nose toward LIBERTY (LIB/right rear leg clash), and more modest polishing lines on the Indian's neck (neck/buffalo's back clash). Very few polishing lines exist near the first feather or the Indian's hair.

There are some distracting hairline surface scratches NW-SE in the Indian's hair. A few small contact marks are evident on the forehead, neck, and in the hair. The small lamination above the knot does not appear to be enough to snag an 83 body bag code from PCGS. The light golden toning matches what is common from the old Wayte Raymond (National Coin) albums. There is possible disruption of the toning near the hair/cheek line and in the hair west of that spot.

The reverse is MDS. It has fairly strong clash marking and heavy die polishing. The first feather/buffalo's head clash is faintly evident, with signs of polishing. The chin/EPU clash has been polished, with SW-NE polishing marks through EPU and N-S polishing marks south of ICA in AMERICA. The buffalo's back has also been polished from the Indian's neck/buffalo's back clash. Both the hair on the head and on the back have been reduced by polishing. There has been very heavy polishing on the right rear leg, from the LIB/leg clash. Some NE-SW polishing marks are still visible. The tail is very weakly split, but has been abraded. The die polishing was followed by die wear, reducing evidence of the polishing, but also leaving the visual appearance of circulation contact.

The light golden toning is evident on the reverse. There appears to be weak disruption of the toning on the buffalo's hindquarter and upper shoulder. There are light surface scratches on the head and flank, and what appears to be friction scuffing on the lower horn and buffalo's ear. Very few serious contact marks exist on this coin.

Putting this all together, I see a high AU coin with a solid strike and EDS/MDS dies. The album scuffing and die polishing could be mistaken for wear. The scuffing and golden color could be mistaken for an older cleaning and retoning. I see no evidence of cleaning and retoning.

This is exactly the type of Buff that could be undergraded. I would not be shocked to see it slabbed as EF-45 or even as EF/AU Details (cleaning). IMHO, this one is a bourse floor AU-55 or AU-58. It has excellent eye appeal. The small obverse lamination (and nascent WSW-ENE lamination across the buffalo's side) do not detract significantly from this coin.

The 1921-S is a tough critter, and a condition scarcity above VF. If this somehow has been undergraded, it would be a fantastic one to snag. If it is straight graded as MS, it's a very tough call. The hints of luster disruption and high point friction and the minor lamination(s) could be negotiating points.

In a lot of years chasing Buffs, I've only handled one truly exceptional 1921-S, and that was a sharply struck EDS/EDS MS-64. That one went well over Greysheet and sits in a longtime customer's collection today. (I don't have custody, but I do get visiting privileges.)

It's a joy to see a nice 1921-S. This is one of them.
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 Posted 12/05/2020  7:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list
Thank you FC for your expertise, as always! I think I speak for everyone in saying your knowledge and in depth responses are always appreciated.

PCGS called this AU50, sliding into my AU-MS set. One of the few coins that I had no problem paying retail pricing for. I feel the obverse lamination may have held this back a few. In hand it looks no less than AU53, but can see it possibly 55. Obviously PCGS saw less, but I'm more than happy to add it to the collection!

1921-S-Buffalo-Nickel.....you-Vs.-PCGS
Bedrock of the Community
United States
94367 Posts
 Posted 12/05/2020  8:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list
Congrats! I really have no business offering an opinion on something like this.
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 Posted 12/06/2020  11:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list
spank me. missed that one by a mile
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 Posted 12/06/2020  7:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list
@Ty2020b, thank you much, my friend. @TNG nailed the grade first. You did very well with this coin. It fits your collection like a glove, and is a much better example than many of the ugly UNCs roaming around.

Just a general note. The TPGs do undergrade the Buffs that have heavy die polishing. There is an opportunity to snag a half point to a point undergrade with slabbed Buffs. This coin is one of them, and the resulting purchase would have been at least $200-$250 below actual value. For huge condition rarities like 1924-S and 1926-S, that can easily be a $1,000 swing to the good.
Edited by fortcollins
12/06/2020 7:18 pm
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 Posted 12/06/2020  7:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ty2020b to your friends list
Couldn't agree more FC. Just about everything popping up had been mushy LDS UNCs and sliders. Even with this one being on the lower end of the scale, grade wise, I was more than happy to take this example. Wound up being $1,150 with buyers fees.

Same issue I'm seeing with the 24s and 26s. Have had my feelers out for awhile on both. Primarily want to hold out for a nice example on the 26s.
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 Posted 12/07/2020  01:26 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list
I too missed it by a mile...but thanks to FC and his observation shared on this coin will help me in the future. Thanks for posting and expanding my knowledge
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 Posted 12/07/2020  01:32 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add That Coin Dude to your friends list
Very nice coin!
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 Posted 12/07/2020  12:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list

Quote:
There is an opportunity to snag a half point to a point undergrade with slabbed Buffs.


FC, what benefit is it to purchase one of these slabbed undergraded coins if everyone looking at them not only see's the grade on the slab but most looking at these coins dont know its undergraded and all they see is what appears to be wear but is actually die polishing.

for the life of me when you describe the locations of the polishing I still cant see any sign of it other than the flatness and what appears to be wear in those areas
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 Posted 12/07/2020  3:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Greasy Fingers to your friends list
@ panzaldi...when I'm on my laptop, I'm able to click on the photos to enlarge and then can zoom in on different areas, all of which then showed the polishing FC spook about. Viewed this coin for about 10 mins (while reading FCs write-up) before I found the lamanation...
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 Posted 12/07/2020  9:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fortcollins to your friends list

Quote:
FC, what benefit is it to purchase one of these slabbed undergraded coins if everyone looking at them not only see's the grade on the slab but most looking at these coins dont know its undergraded and all they see is what appears to be wear but is actually die polishing.


The old adage "buy the coin, not the slab" works both ways. Let's take a 1926-S as an example. Suppose it is slabbed as AU-50, but is actually a heavily die polished AU-55. The price of the AU-50 is around $1800-1900. The price of an AU-55 is around $2500-2600. A +$700 swing is pretty real. People building sets checking the four boxes will recognize the true grade. There's an opportunity to flip the coin upward at true grade on a bourse floor. The key is to buy slabbed and sell in hand.

Most flippers crack the coin and sell it raw. I leave it slabbed for my clients. They know how I buy for them and they see what I see in the coins. (We all have decades of history together, so there's that.) For them, the TPG grade is meaningless. The coin is everything.
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