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Opinion - Modern Commem And NIFC Numismatic Issues - Which May Develop Healthy Premium In 50 Years?

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 Posted 11/19/2023  8:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add trdhrdr007 to your friends list
IMO the answer is almost none. Anything low mintage with high demand has an initial instant jump in value. If you manage to buy from the mint you make a good profit on paper. After that prices stay relatively flat. Everything else is available for less than mint prices in short order. I don't see that changing.

Edit to add: There's always the possibility that precious metals increase over the next 50years.
Edited by trdhrdr007
11/19/2023 8:14 pm
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 Posted 11/20/2023  05:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nickelsearcher to your friends list
I say almost nothing fits into your definition. If there is going to be any significant value appreciation IMO it will come from precious metal value increases and not numismatic premiums.

There was about a 5 year run where I purchased modern commemoratives directly from the Mint. In practically every case if I has waited 6 months for the after-mint market I could have purchased them for less.

Those prices have remained flat ever since. I don't see that ever changing.

Sure, there is the occasional Mint produced product that immediately increases in value and holds there - but looking for that to happen IMO is speculation and not collecting.
Take a look at my other hobby ... http://www.jk-dk.art
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 Posted 11/20/2023  12:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list
none of them

Both are produced relatively close to current demand and it is unlikely demand will increase as coins become less and less common.

Check the history of Silver Art Bars for an illustrative example. They were hot because the underlying silver value was slowly increasing and the Art content made collecting them interesting.

When Silver spiked, large quantities were melted and the market never recovered.
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
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 Posted 11/25/2023  7:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinnewcomer1 to your friends list
Thanks to those who did offer some possibilities.

As for those who say none will --- well you may be correct but then again if you were a collector in say 1901. Buffalo nickels and Indian Head pennies would seems very common and not worth collecting unless you got one in Au or UNC condition. Of course both series had much more buying power than today but still I can imagine there were quite a few collectors then who said not to waste one's time with these coins. And think about someone in 1955 --- a circulated quarter or dime would not have had many think of collecting them except beginner ones. And in 1970 many did not think it worth keeping the 40% silver Kennedy halves or a few years later full step nickels. So although I hardly disagree with the assessment that most of these will likely gain little of a premium or even decline in value you never know.

hfjacinto --- I think you mean the 2009 Lincoln cents in original composition before 1983 that were available only in proof sets. The uncirculated sets were made with the current combo of zinc covered with copper. But they were in satin finish. However high grade 2019W cents (which I have - although the proof was not high grade ended up with a bunch of hairline due to loose packaging) have attained a premium mintages are low for the series and they are well-nigh impossible to find in circulation. But the premiums will stay flat or grow very slowly as attrition will only be due to poor storage or errnatly put into circulation.
Edited by coinnewcomer1
11/25/2023 7:22 pm
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 Posted 11/25/2023  8:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add hfjacinto to your friends list
Correct a typo on my part, 2009 not 2019.

One point to clarify, the satin finish were not proofs, they were included in the uncirculated set, and there composition was 95 % copper, 3 % zinc and 2 % tin, the original composition of the 1909 cents.
Edited by hfjacinto
11/25/2023 8:53 pm
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 Posted 11/25/2023  9:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list
I have learned from experience to shy away from modern NIFC / NCLT, because they (mostly) turn out to have poor investment performance in the numismatic re sale after market.

Nevertheless, investment performance over the long term has never been a strong personal motivation for building a decent collection.
Getting good value for money at the time of purchase is a strong motivation for me, because it induces me to do a lot of numismatic and price research into the background of a coin that may attract my interest

With modern coins, my numismatic interest does not extend much after about 1950, when silver began to be withdrawn from the World's circulating currencies.
Numismatically, my interests extend right back to the invention of coinage, about 2,600 years ago.
With such wide ranging interests, bargains are much easier to find at the time of purchase, but research is essential before buying.

I greatly value the opinions of the specialists here in the CCF.

I regard the accumulation of bullion coins as a form of precious metal investment, A have a few Pt coins, but they have not done very well in recent times.

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 Posted 11/26/2023  11:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list
The largest problem with NIFC is two-fold. One is that typically by law they have to recover the entire expense of production, from the raw materials through to the guy sweeping up the floors from the sales. And the second is that the various mints see these are major profit centers.

They're not rare enough nor collectible enough to command those same premiums in the resale market (sure, there are a few winners, but ...). So the initial purchaser takes a significant loss.
-----Burton
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Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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 Posted 11/26/2023  1:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sharks to your friends list
Very, very few will even keep there issued value. This is similar to the NCLT minted be our RCM. Much of the previous issues can now be obtained for less than original price.
A few of limited mintage or rare varieties go against the grain.
Edited by Sharks
11/26/2023 1:16 pm
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 Posted 11/26/2023  2:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadDog to your friends list
US Mint modern gold commemoratives will be significantly higher than today's prices. Mostly due to the increase in gold value.
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 Posted 11/26/2023  4:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CelticKnot to your friends list
The gold commemoratives and Eagles I've purchased in the past 20 years are just about the only thing that's gained value in my collection, and that is, as others have mentioned, due to increase in the PM itself.

But I'm not collecting as an investment so that's not a problem for me.
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 Posted 11/27/2023  2:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list

Quote:
But I'm not collecting as an investment so that's not a problem for me.
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 Posted 11/27/2023  3:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Morgans Dad to your friends list









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 Posted 11/27/2023  8:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list

Quote:
As for those who say none will --- well you may be correct but then again if you were a collector in say 1901. Buffalo nickels and Indian Head pennies would seems very common and not worth collecting unless you got one in Au or UNC condition. Of course both series had much more buying power than today but still I can imagine there were quite a few collectors then who said not to waste one's time with these coins. And think about someone in 1955 --- a circulated quarter or dime would not have had many think of collecting them except beginner ones. And in 1970 many did not think it worth keeping the 40% silver Kennedy halves or a few years later full step nickels. So although I hardly disagree with the assessment that most of these will likely gain little of a premium or even decline in value you never know.

Those examples are all circulation coins, not NCLT. Both supply and demand are different equations for NCLT. So a better analogy to study might be the historic behaviour of the only "old series" of NCLT in US coinage: Classic Commemoratives.

Classic Commemoratives were typically sold for a small premium - usually not over 200% of face value. Mintages were tiny. And they gradually became popular with collectors of the day, though many started off with very low demand, and many of the later series did not reach their immediate sales targets. Prices for classic commems slowly increased over time, then hit a sudden spike in the mid to late 1980s as investors discovered them. The spike proved to be a bubble, which burst in the mid-1990s and has never really recovered.

Now, compare this to modern NCLT. Mint issue price premiums are much larger - those restrike Morgan and Peace "dollars" are selling for 8000% above their face value, or 420% above the bullion value, and this seems typical for modern commemoratives. Mintages are also much larger - hundreds of thousands is typical. All of which means the popularity curve for these coins tends to be the inverse of the curve for classics: they typically start off very strong immediately on release, then weaken.

So, if classic commems are struggling to regain their lost prestige as investor items after 30 years, it seems to me much much less likely that modern NCLT is going to become a trendy category over a similar timeframe. I hate to break it to people of a certain age bracket, but 1982 was 40 years ago now.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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 Posted 11/28/2023  3:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sharks to your friends list
I sometimes purchase NCLT for more than issue price, but only to help complete a set or series eg. Canadian Commemorative proof silver dollars.
There are some of limited mintage (5,000 or less) which have shot up in price (covid & discretionary money?)
Most PL sets can be had for less than issue price, etc, etc, etc.
Edited by Sharks
11/28/2023 3:35 pm
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 Posted 12/02/2023  9:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinnewcomer1 to your friends list
Sap - excellent point regarding my comparison although as silver was also commonly found in many denominations issued at the time of the issuance of classic commemorative, some of the commems did go into circulation. But excellent point regarding the mark-up over face value. The only correction to your post is there are modern commemoratives with extremely low mintages --- even lower than the classic commemoratives.

Here are a few examples:

1937 Roanoke Island 350th Anniversary - Mintage 29,030. Compare it to Boys Town 2017P Uncirculated Silver Dollar about 12,000.
1923 Monroe Doctrine Centennial - 275,000 approx. Compare it to 1990 Eisenhower Commemorative uncirculated dollar - about 241,670.
1935 Old Spanish Commemorative - 10,000. Compare it to 2021National Law Enforcement Museum Unc Silver Dollar - about 9,400.

In fact since 2011 mintages of most modern commemorative unc silver dollars have been below 50,000 and often around 25,000. In some recent years below 15,000.

But I agree the difference is the mark-up is a bit higher - about 2.5 x average spot price for silver uncs (and yes for face value much higher) and it is impractical to spend these.
Nevertheless, it is interesting to still ask my original question as the old overproduced commemorative issued in the first half of the 20th century cannot be spent now and the mintages from those issued in the past 10 year has been quite a bit lower than those of the classic early 20th century commems.

As an aside, also look at some of the mintages of 2022's commems: 2022 Negro Leagues Clad Half dollar sold 9,775, the silver unc 8,448, gold unc 1,500 (! making this definitely a scarcity); 2022 Purple Heart fared better - Clad Unc - 12,460, Silver Unc about 14,000, Gold Unc about 1,670. And as usual the proof strikes had higher sales or those offering privy marks.

So to me it is an interesting time to ask this question despite some pessimism.
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