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 Replies: 20 / Views: 1,463 |
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
18700 Posts |
lighting and focus are not the best, AU53
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Bedrock of the Community
 United States
11898 Posts |
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3327 Posts |
Sweet coin - congratulations! May I ask where you purchased the coin?
"Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Moderator
 United States
189502 Posts |
Very nice!  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3327 Posts |
Thanks for the listing. "Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
18700 Posts |
in hand photos very different and a good lesson for newbies that you cant always judge a coin by photos accurately. focus lighting and angles can alter what we see. 45 is the correct grade
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3327 Posts |
Thought I should clarify my remarks above about the true number of VAM-9 coins. I have no doubt that the 303 first day production is fairly accurate. My contention is that these dies were used to make more coins on subsequent days. If we could compare one of those 303 and the numerous other examples that are out there, we may be able to say with some degree of accuracy if our coins were, indeed, minted on day one. I'd love to know that.
"Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
Quote:
I think that the obverse die may have been damaged and reworked since VAMWorld states it was used on subsequent varieties VAM-14.1 and VAM-14.10, but the reverse die was probably used for MANY more coins before it, too, was retired. @Bump111 - I think VAMWorld says something different: Quote:2. The more common A1k reverse (VAMs 1878-P VAM-14.1 & 1878-P VAM-14.10) reverse is frequently mistaken for the VAM 9's A1h reverse. 4. The obverse was also used on 1878-P VAM-14 & 1878-P VAM-14.15. https://vamworld.com/wiki/1878-P_VAM-9 This seems to imply that the reverse die was damaged in March 11, 1878 and the obverse die was able to be used on subsequent coins including 1878-P VAM-14 & 1878-P VAM-14.15. As such, it seems that there are other coins with the same obverse but other coins are not known with the same reverse. This snip from VAMWorld seems to say that the A1h reverse is unique to the VAM-9 and VAM-9A (the clashed version of VAM-9) die pair.  https://vamworld.com/wiki/1878-P-20...bution_guideIN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.comEdited by numismatic student
10/12/2025 8:19 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
At left below is an enlargement of the bow tying the wreath in the reverse. At right below is the attribution pick ups for the A1h reverse. The raised nub within the wreath bow is there. I will see if I can get a better picture of the area to see if Morgan's initial is there.  IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
36844 Posts |
Sure looks nicer than an XF-45.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3327 Posts |
Quote:
@Bump111 - I think VAMWorld says something different: Correct. Sorry about the confusion. I would still like to see an accurate census on these VAM-9 coins. To see so many on ebay, in auctions, in registry sets, and unattributed in various places, there must be more than 300-400 out there. If we are only going on what a newspaper reporter said in 1878, that could be slim evidence. Perhaps there is data to be mined from the Mint production records - maybe I'll look into that. As I said before - I have purchased three unattributed examples and found a couple more that I didn't get. If I was actively looking for them, I think I could find more. Thanks for your insights and added information on this variety. It is certainly an interesting story. "Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3663 Posts |
Quote:
According to a reporter present, only 303 pieces were struck when the die failed and new ones had to be used. I find this quote from VAMWorld interesting. I have always seen the news story paraphrased. but haven't seen a photo or screen capture of the story itself. Just a couple thoughts to spur discussion here. I don't have any answers. As numismatists, we have a fairly specific thing in mind when we refer to a "die" or "dies" and another specific thing in mind when we say that a die or dies "failed." To a reporter in 1878 who may never have seen a coining press before covering the striking ceremony, those words may have had a different meaning. We know that the dies clashed. That's where 1878 VAM-9A comes into play. If the reverse die "failed" as we would refer to the event, one of two things should be true. Either we should see die cracks on the VAM-9A reverse, suggesting a progressive failure, or there would have been a sudden, catastrophic die failure. Does anyone have a VAM-9A showing significant reverse die cracks? A catastrophic failure definitely is possible, and could support the idea that only 303 coins (or acceptable coins) were struck from the first die pair. On the other hand, what if the reporter referred to a breakdown of the coining press itself as "the die failed"? If there was a press failure, the logical next step would have been to end the ceremonial striking, and move production to another coining press (maybe the next day since it was already late in the afternoon) and continue striking dollars until the first press could be repaired. Again, if the reporter was not familiar with the mechanics of the minting process, "new ones" could refer to an entire coining press, obviously with different dies. If this is what occurred, we would expect the first die pair to continue in use once the first coining press was repaired. This could support the idea that more than 303 coins were struck from the first die pair, just not on the first day. What calls this into question is the relative scarcity of 1878 VAM-9A coins. If the die pair continued in use, either the dies would have been polished to reduce evidence of the clashing or there would be more VAM-9A examples. I haven't seen any VAM-9 or VAM-9A coins with significant additional die polishing. The clashes on VAM-9A are weak, though, and could have worn down on their own with continued die use. Just some pondering here. No "hot takes" or strong opinions. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3327 Posts |
Interesting observations, @fortcollins. A die study to determine how it all unfolded would be very interesting.
"Nummi rari mira sunt, si sumptus ferre potes." - Christophorus filius Scotiae
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
11898 Posts |
Seems to me that if the reverse die failed after 303-350 impressions, the die was essentially new and the stress cracks that you would normally see due to overuse would not be present. The more likely reason for the die's failure would be that the press was not set up correctly or the dies were mis-calibrated creating a catastrophic mishap for that die. This also seems more likely as it was the first minting experience for this new design. A 1878 8TF VAM-9 die study is exactly what Leroy Van Allen (the 'VA' in ' VAM') did when he studied the Hayes coin at his Presidential Library in Ohio and Van Allen also owned at least two early impressions on the VAM-9. Both were graded by ANACS and one was 64DMPL and the other 62DMPL. He studied these coins extensively for die attributes and published his work in 1980, identifying the first Morgan dollar die pair. The 2 coins in his collection were sold by Heritage in 2009. @Bump111, if you are looking to examine the VAM-9 for die characteristics, HA has excellent images online. 1. https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dol...ption-0715152. https://coins.ha.com/itm/morgan-dol...ption-071515Maybe a refresh of his study could be undertaken again by an ambitious numismatist. There are thousands of VAM varieties and the list is ever expanding. However, to date there is no other known 1878 8TF die pair with the A1h reverse, suggesting that the failure was terminal for that die. Maybe another die pair with this reverse appears some day, but 45 years later, the reported story that a die failed, ending the first day run of VAM-9 and 9A coins seems to hold up as reported. IN NECESSARIIS UNITAS - IN DUBIIS LIBERTAS - IN OMNIBUS CARITAS THE MAN IN THE ARENA, Theodore Roosevelt at the Sorbonne Paris on April 23, 1910: " It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error or shortcoming, but who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, who spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at the best, knows, in the end, the triumph of high achievement, and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least he fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who knew neither victory nor defeat." My coin website: https://fairfaxcoins.com |
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Replies: 20 / Views: 1,463 |
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Posted 10/09/2025 12:56 pm
