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The Conder Token Thread

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Valued Member
United States
103 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2014  12:18 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add HarryWells to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
I have seen a lot of great images of Conder tokens here and there on this forum and I am hoping to create a place to bring some of those photos and stories together.

I have been collecting these for a couple of years and think these are some of the most beautiful copper coins out there. I would like to share some of those images with everyone, but I am also hoping to encourage others to post their images and create some discussion as well.

I hope to post a few images each week and will post my first images shortly. Thanks for taking a look.
Valued Member
United States
103 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2014  12:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HarryWells to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is the coin that started it all for me. In 2011, I had been collecting coins for a short time, but had never heard of a Conder token.

I had been to England in 2005 for work and traveled to York on one of my free weekends. I had spent a foggy Sunday morning walking around the Shambles and ended up at York Minster. I had never been inside of a building this old. I wandered around fascinated by the sheer size and magnificence of the place. There were ornate alters, brightly painted tombs, 500 year-old tombstones on the floors and a 1,500 year old Roman stone coffin in the crypt. I was so captivated that I forgot to eat lunch and by 3 in the afternoon I was feeling faint.

I made it over to a pub a couple blocks away and had a few of pints of beer with my meal. After I finished eating I had about an hour to kill before catching a train back to Leicester. I went back over to the courtyard behind the minster and found a stone bench to sit on. By now it had started misting and the fog had returned. I sat there just staring up at this thousand year old gothic cathedral thinking about all the generations that had come and gone since it was built. I am not a religious person, and it was probably the pints I was feeling but there was just this immense sense of awe and peace that came over me. That is probably as close to a mystical experience as I will ever have.

Fast forward six years and I was looking on-line for some belated souvenirs to remind me of that trip. I was searching in Google images and there was this incredible coin on there. I figured it was either some type of modern issue for tourists or if the date of on the coin of 1793 was real this would cost me many hundreds of dollars. But after some searching I was surprised to learn that I could own a high-grade example of this coin for less than $150 and I bought one from Bill McKivor at the Copper Corner. Ever since then I have been hooked on collecting high-grade examples of these beautiful coins.


Valued Member
United States
103 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2014  12:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HarryWells to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are a couple more to get things rolling.

I was also able to visit St. Paul's in London in 2005. I always try to pick up coins with St. Paul's Cathedral on them when I can. Here is one of my favorites.



Here is a more common token and maybe not in the best shape, but still I love the design.



Bedrock of the Community
United States
21548 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2014  12:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice coins Harry. Wish I had kept all the pieces I had some 30 years ago. I only saved one and it is an ugly duckling. The only reason I kept it was because of the error in the date, 1972 instead of 1792. What amazed me was that this piece was so heavily worn from use with a date on it that was 220+ years in the future. Guess few people looked at or kept coins back then.

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United States
3706 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2014  2:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ExoGuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a long overdue thread for these beautifully designed copper tokens which inspired many an American engraver in the years following.

Here's one that I recently purchased, largely given its unusual subject matter, history and RB condition:




Edited by ExoGuy
01/18/2014 2:42 pm
Pillar of the Community
United States
652 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2014  4:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mackwork to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not rare at all, and very low cost . My only Conder token (1794). I've seen this one a few times in the past, and always found the satirical view of France at the time, as seen by the British, to be interesting. The French revolution (1789 - 1799) was a period of social and political turmoil in France. This Conder half penny token of 1794 references the French Revolution. The edge of the this variety has a milled design.


Obverse: "A MAP of FRANCE 1794": "HONOR" trodden under foot, "throne" turned upside down (instability), "FRA-NCE" divided, "RE/ LI/GI/ON" cut in pieces, "GLORY" defaced, "FIRE" (in the corners), and small kives forming a square around the center. And, as another attempt at satire, the date is even upside down.


Reverse: "MAY GREAT BRITAIN EVER REMAIN THE REVERSE", I'm guessing the meaning of this was that the British didn't want England to end up like the confusion in France.




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United Kingdom
4208 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2014  8:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sir Jeff Dunstan is a good one, in pretty fair condition too. The map of france is one I bought...my first lesson in Conder collection: the colour of the photograph isn't necessarily the colour of the coin. Its the chewed up one at the bottom of the picture of all of them.

My nicest conder is of Guildford, around 1793 when the Wey Navigation Toll was put in place (1d for each load). Also in airtites are a Manchester (worn honestly) and a Wilkinson with red and lustre but big dents (cost me £3). Guildford is my most expensive by £20, costing me a whopping £30.Im working on moving the permanent collection into airtites and acquiring some more high grade coinage.

The other picture is (nearly) all of the tokens I could find. I kept records for this venture...this is what £100 looks like in Copper tokens from the 1790s. The record shows sold tokens, prices and sales prices and other notes. I've had 3 tokens stolen (2 in the post, one pinched at a carboot sale (it was gold plated at minting, so perhaps they thought it was gold, which is even more worrying) - The fella that knicked it did the old switcheroo - perhaps he didnt know he was stealing it (he didnt speak much english and didnt seem to know how money worked).




Im not keeping all of them, but I'mletting the market go up a bit before I purge the spares and surplus.
Valued Member
United States
103 Posts
 Posted 01/18/2014  11:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HarryWells to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for all of the wonderful tokens.

I especially like the satiric France token. That always reminds me of the giant foot that would come down and squash the titles on the opening theme of Monte Python's Flying Circus.

Keep 'em coming.
Valued Member
United States
103 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2014  09:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add HarryWells to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here are three more for this week.

I love tokens with buildings, bridges and ships. This one ticks two of the boxes and has some nice toning on the back which doesn't show up very well here. I've never figured out what the FSU means at the bottom of the reverse. If anyone knows let me know. (And no it's not Florida State University.)




This one is not very ornate, but has always intrigued me why they would put a pest on their token advertising a tea warehouse.




This one is quite common, but again I love the design.



Pillar of the Community
United States
567 Posts
 Posted 01/25/2014  9:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add brg5658 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have a couple dozen, but I'll start with my most recently acquired. This token (or strictly speaking, medalet) was issued in 1797 by Peter Kempson, as a part of his "London Buildings" series. The draw for me was the cartwheel like reverse with the broad raised band and the incuse lettering and date. The toning on this token is also stunning, with deep blues and rose, and surfaces that to my eye look like those of a modern day proof.

Bedrock of the Community
United States
21548 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2014  12:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That 1797 Penny is amazing!
Bedrock of the Community
United States
11935 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2014  6:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
How do you know if a coin is a condor token?

For example I have

# 1 near dollar size copper
One side has male bust in Roman dress.

Other side has what looks like Britannia sitting on rock
With shield. Has a week word "Commerce" dated 1814

#2 near dollar size copper
One side "Token 1812" around that is "Cheadle copper & Brass company"
Other side "One Cent" Payable in London Cheadle and ?ATH

Right now I don't have pictures ... Just hoping for a opinion on if these
might be condor tokens.
Pillar of the Community
United States
567 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2014  6:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add brg5658 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
How do you know if a coin is a condor token?

For example I have

# 1 near dollar size copper
One side has male bust in Roman dress.

Other side has what looks like Britannia sitting on rock
With shield. Has a week word "Commerce" dated 1814

#2 near dollar size copper
One side "Token 1812" around that is "Cheadle copper & Brass company"
Other side "One Cent" Payable in London Cheadle and ?ATH

Right now I don't have pictures ... Just hoping for a opinion on if these
might be condor tokens.


CondEr (not CondOr) tokens are also referred to as 18th Century British Trade Tokens, 18th Century British Provincial Tokens, or simply 18th Century British Copper Tokens. They are called "Conder" tokens by many/most collectors in the USA because one of the first authors to issue a listing/catalog of the tokens was James Conder. The most common reference for such tokens today is the Dalton & Hamer work from the 1910s. For the most part, these tokens were issued between 1787 and 1797, with a few going as late as 1804 (in the D&H work). If you want more information on the history behind Conder tokens, I updated the Wikipedia article last summer and it is quite complete (and includes many references): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conder_Token

What you have are referred to as 19th Century Copper Tokens, and they would be listed in the Withers (1999) reference or the R.C. Bell reference (1964) of tokens. For the most part, the 19th Century Copper tokens were issued between 1811 and 1817, with a few being issued as late as the 1820s.
Bedrock of the Community
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11935 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2014  7:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the information ....

Sorry about the spelling error
Pillar of the Community
United States
567 Posts
 Posted 01/26/2014  11:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add brg5658 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
No problem GR58. Also, not a problem with the spelling. If you can take pictures of your two tokens from the 1812 era, please do and post there here. They fit well with Conders, and there are some quite scarce varieties from that timeframe. Cheers, brg
Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
4208 Posts
 Posted 01/27/2014  4:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ben to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That penny is nice, any chance of a picture from a different angle?

Heres a coin I'mthinking of purchasing, it would cost me £18 to my door:


What do people think, worth it? I'mwondering how nice it will look in person (theres not much red left to it). I do like the East India Company logo on it though (even though its plain edged).
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