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Counterfeit 1803 Half Cent

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Pillar of the Community
United States
1304 Posts
 Posted 12/08/2015  2:51 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add EFLargeCents to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
What are the odds two coins have exactly the same dings and scratches and marks and bumps, if those coins are real? 0%

This coin has been taken down from sale by the seller.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1803-Draped...141847530082



This coin is still up for sale
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1803-Draped...AOSwf-VWYFUd




Note the same mark on the T in Liberty, the same bumps in the field to the left of the hair ribbon. The same prominent mark on the neck. On the reverse, the same scratch above the letters CE in CENT.

Both are in legit NGC holders, so not really sure if these should be removed, just another FYI to all the collectors of these series, check your reference books!
Edited by EFLargeCents
12/08/2015 3:09 pm
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 Posted 12/08/2015  3:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
And also bumps on the neck and toolmarks at about 3:00-3:30 on the obverse rim (unless this is diagnostic of a Cohen variety).

I must applaud your detective work. I would have picked up on this being a counterfeit after examination and suspiciouly comparing it to known Cohen varieties, but that 1798 large you posted is far superior to this coin in terms of deceptiveness.
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 Posted 12/08/2015  3:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's very concerning that these are fooling graders at NGC.
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 Posted 12/08/2015  3:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add EFLargeCents to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
TypeCoin, not my detective work, I can't take credit for this. Just trying to help folks become aware of what is coming down the counterfeit pipeline. Better minds then mine have spotted these. Best advice, know your coins, pick up reference books, get to know your dealers, find an awesome community or coin club, and learn as much as possible!
Edited by EFLargeCents
12/08/2015 3:39 pm
Forum Dad
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United States
22202 Posts
 Posted 12/08/2015  3:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add bobby131313 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Maybe I'm just a moron here but why couldn't they have been struck by the same legit dies?
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 Posted 12/08/2015  3:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add EFLargeCents to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A good question Bobby, and you are right, it is possible, but not in this instance. There are 3 known die pairings for 1803 Half Cents. Cohen 1, 2 and 3. This is C-3, the wide TY variety. There are 4 recognized die states for that variety. None of these have the mark on the T. None of them have the dings on the neck, and none of them have the scratch over the CE in CENT, least of all not at the same time. They just don't show up in the records, and more coins would have had these and they would have been recorded as part of a die state long before now. I use The Half Cent Die State Book by Ronald Manley as a guide, it has great photos.
Edited by EFLargeCents
12/08/2015 3:50 pm
Rest in Peace
United States
17900 Posts
 Posted 12/08/2015  3:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The large planchet flaw to the right of Liberty's eyes on the NGC holder ending in 001 (hereafter called the first coin) is not present on the second coin. A decided scrape on the second coin beginning at Liberty's mouth and progressing across the entire cheek is not found on the first example. On the reverse of coin #2 there is a die crack running from the second T in STATES to the left top of the F in HALF that is not found on the first coin.

I see what you are talking about. However, the "bumps" to the left of the hair ribbon appear to be RAISED, not indented, which would have been a result of the die getting dinged and could have easily appeared on two coins coined from the same dies.

I'd appreciate someone with expertise in Half Cents (any Cohen Fans out there?), but I'd say coin #1 is most certainly the real deal, while the second is so washed out in this photos I'd never try to guess it's authenticity based on those crummy photos.
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 Posted 12/08/2015  3:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add EFLargeCents to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Moxking, the planchet flaw is a planchet flaw, not a die flaw, that doesn't prove it is real or that the dies are different. Also, some level of artificial wear is evident on both coins, so I'm not surprised some marks aren't on both coins. But the marks that are IDENTICAL are NOT found in any Half Cent reference guide, Cohen, or as I indicated above, Manley.

Also, both coins do appear to show the same die crack from the second T in States through to the F in HALF
Edited by EFLargeCents
12/08/2015 3:56 pm
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 Posted 12/08/2015  4:33 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Look at the gouge on the neck that is in the exact same place, and is the exact same size. That mark is not a die artefact because the metal would have to raise out of the die to produce an incuse image. No normal striking proceedures would do that to a die. And the chances that the two coins would get damaged in the exact same way in the exact same place with the exact same severity is astronomically close to zero, especially with only 92,000 ever made.

Also look at the tiny pit present on both coins at the top leaf of the left side of the wreath.

I am convinced they were produced by the same counterfeit die.
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 Posted 12/08/2015  4:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add EFLargeCents to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good eye on the pit on the top leaf typecoin, I didn't notice that!
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 Posted 12/09/2015  09:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add edweather to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great thread, extremely informative, and worrisome too.
Bedrock of the Community
United States
17762 Posts
 Posted 12/09/2015  12:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Also, both coins do appear to show the same die crack from the second T in States through to the F in HALF

That is normal for the C-3 variety.

The key is that gouge on the neck which is present on both coins.


Quote:
Also look at the tiny pit present on both coins at the top leaf of the left side of the wreath.

The C-3 in the Missouri Cabinet shows that same pit. But it doesn'thave the neck gouge.
Gary Schmidt
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 Posted 12/09/2015  12:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add EFLargeCents to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for clearing that up Conder. I have now seen 4 coins with the neck gouge and ding in T all in exactly the same spot.
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 Posted 12/09/2015  2:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The cert lookup on NGC for the first coin says NOT GENUINE.
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 Posted 12/09/2015  2:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add EFLargeCents to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That is a recent update by NGC kbbpll. Thanks for sharing.

Incidentally, that coin was submitted to NGC in the same group as these coins:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1823-2-Coro...221956975719

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1849-Seated...221907651826

Both of those coins were sold recently by the seller of the second 1803 I listed above.

All the coins in that submission have "Contact NGC Customer Service"
Edited by EFLargeCents
12/09/2015 2:56 pm
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 Posted 12/09/2015  7:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kbbpll to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A "submission" is the first 7 digits, right? This whole situation with these sellers, that other thread, and NGC, is just bizarre. To me at least. Whole batches of counterfeits got past NGC? The one(?) that did caused the whole batch to get flagged?

OK, so your first coin, seller #1, takes down the 1803 Half Cent, and NGC now says "not genuine". All the other coins starting with 2643807 also say "contact customer service". Every single coin in this batch are Details, improperly cleaned, tooled, or plugged, except two with no pictures that are Not Genuine.

Second coin, seller #2, has the exact same counterfeit, also certified by NGC, still valid. Plus, this seller has also sold coins from the same batch as the fake coin taken down by seller #1.

Did I get that right? The second coin's batch, 4133795, is also all Details coins, except one "not suitable for certification" and one 1847 Hawaii 1c that got AU58 (they must have been going "woohoo! jackpot!"). The last one in this batch is 1799 $10 AU details improperly cleaned. A $20,000 coin, right? Fake? Is it common to submit batches that all end up Details?

Seems like this is something for Secret Service/FBI to figure out, as far as the connections between these sellers and whoever made the NGC submissions.
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