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 Replies: 22 / Views: 8,383 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1130 Posts |
I was a little suspicious. Something did not look right but I just could not pinpoint it. So, went to a local coin show and showed several dealers. A few did not detect anything and then the NGC dealer and the EAC guy saw it. The small pimples and small irregularities were signs of spark erosion counterfeits. The planchet composition was off too. The color did not come from cleaning or retoning. Good enough to fool some, but not the best eyes. Going back to the seller Monday.   |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
6381 Posts |
I'm not at all sure I would have picked up on this fake. Since you've tipped us off that it is bogus, I can spot some suspicious areas, especially the headdress feathers. 1909-S Indians often have some strike weakness, but this one has really weak detail in the first 4 feathers. There also seem to be extra points of metal in between those feathers which I'm pretty sure are not normal. The color looks odd as well.
Congratulations on spotting this one. A deceptive coin like this could very easily have ended up in someone's collection and become a major disappointment down the road.
Let's hope the seller does the right thing and takes it off the market. I'm wondering whether you should reveal his/her identity so we can monitor future sales in case this coin shows up again.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
549 Posts |
I'm guessing it will reappear in a listing in 2-3 months. No seller would be stupid enough to relist it right away. They'll wait until they know that the buyer isn't looking out for it anymore.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
628 Posts |
I would have been fooled by this one.
The problem with buying key dates for me is the need to be expert on so many varieties.
Thanks for the info and photos.
I'm not a pro on these, I compared the pictures here to others and yes, I agree, the extra points of metal in between those feathers don't belong.
Thanks again for the great post.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
I noticed you said going back to the seller. I resume this means it was not a internet type sale but a local coin store or something like that. If this is the situation I think you should give the location so many others could monitor the end results of this fake. And/or let us know what that dealer says. He too may have purchased this coin from ebay or somewhere and that too should be watched. Just out of curiousity, how much was that coin? I wonder how many more of them are out there? I doubt that the counterfeiters would make only one. Possibly many, many more floating around by now. Usually those would or should be poping up in the same basic area. |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1130 Posts |
I won this off ebay. I have informed the seller and they requested something in writing from the dealer so that they can get their money back. I really think they had no clue it was a counterfeit. I got this for about $500. Coin was a solid EF (3 and 1/4 diamonds)with Greysheet about $560. I thought it was a decent catch but apparently not. I had a lot of help to catch this one. Some people at the NGC board raised a red flag when I posted there. Like the EAC guy said... it's a good fake, but not THAT good, with a wink. :) |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
From what I've read, the spark erosion copies of the 08-S and 09-S share the same reverse, and one needs to look at that mintmark as closely as any 09-S VDB they consider purchasing. This coin looks a bit "off", but I can't say I wouldn't be fooled either. It's good to be aware--and I hope you can return the coin.
Now, regarding whether the seller would "relist" this coin...I'll just say that any dealer who values their reputation should accept the return and eat the loss if it comes to that. In fact, a lot of dealers would like to have this counterfeit on hand to compare to other coins.
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Bedrock of the Community
Canada
10743 Posts |
Man... I got to agree with m9frank I collect Indians and I probably would have bought this one. It would have fooled me.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2602 Posts |
Wow. When I first saw this coin and took a quick glance I thought it was real, too. If you are able to weigh it on a good balance, can you tell us how much it weighs? I heard that many fakes of IHCs are under weight by quite a bit. Normal weight should be 3.1 g plus or minus a tenth or so.
Looking at it more closely, I was wondering about the position of the "S" on the reverse. Is this the right position of the S on a genuine piece? I was wondering if the S is a little too far to the left on this fake.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
749 Posts |
Sometimes having a bunch of different eyes take a look pays off..I hope you dont have problems getting a refund
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1130 Posts |
No, never did weigh it but it looks like the planchet composition may have been a little off too. The dead giveaway way under a 10X loupe and knowing what to look for. The S mintmark is pretty close to where it should be. In spark erosion, the die is made from a genuine coin, so the usual diagnostics, like a weak first feather on the headress for the 1909-S, will be there. And no problems with a refund either. Once you put violation of ebay policies and a federal crime together in a sentence, it doesn't take long to get a refund back. Of course, having the card of the NGC dealer who looked at it doesn't hurt either  Edited by 1sikevo
02/10/2008 3:09 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
749 Posts |
Right on sikevo  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
673 Posts |
Wow, I am going to have to look more closely at the Indians. I don't think I would have spotted it as fake from pictures and my as yet small amount of knowledge on this series.I may have suspected cleaning from the darkness around the devices...but that's it. This forum has undoubtedly saved many people many dollars. Thanks for posting 1sikevo.
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Valued Member
United States
328 Posts |
Thanks for showing me that, I'll have to keep an eye out for fakes.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1424 Posts |
At least you caught it before it was too late....
I remember thinking something was wrong with the color when you posted it the other day but I figured it had just been cleaned.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5318 Posts |
It sounds like the seller was just as surprised as you, and I'm impressed he didn't get defensive or bluster his way out of a refund. I would say he's earned some trust. |
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Replies: 22 / Views: 8,383 |
Posted 02/10/2008 08:34 am
