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Why Was This Heavily-Damaged Shipwreck Coin Slabbed?

 
 
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27 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2016  12:54 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Glenmore to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
This heavily-damaged half real from the El Cazador was offered on eBay with a starting bid of one dollar. It's certified genuine by NGC, with no grade, "shipwreck effect" or otherwise. (Auction here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1783FF-Half...72214000614) NGC values this coin at $10 in VG8 and $50 in VF20, with a melt value of 84.



I imagine that whatever subjective value this coin may have is based on its being a shipwreck coin, and that it was slabbed to certify that status. But why?

Why wouldn't it make more sense to provide the evidence of its provenance to prospective buyers, rather than going through the certification process? Is it realistic to think that this coin's being NGC-certified as genuine will increase its value enough to justify paying the certification fee?

With three days and 23 hours to go, the current bid is $2.25. It seems to me that the coin is not realistically worth much more than that. I'm not a shipwreck collector myself, but I might be willing to pay as much as $7 (including shipping) for this coin, just as a curiosity. With a shipping fee of $3.55, this coin loses my interest once it goes past $3.45, which it seems likely to do.

What am I missing here? Aren't you bound to lose money by having a coin like this certified?
Valued Member
59 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2016  2:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Skippypnb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
COIN REMOVED. Instead of posting a question no one can answer; why not call NGC. Many of the coins from this wreck are fakes with the specific gravity of copper alloy. I own one or two (Maybe 3 - I forgot) of the fakes with "sea water damage." However, none are certified.
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717 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2016  2:38 pm  Show Profile   Check Collects82's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Collects82 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think that the El Cazadore coins where generally submitted in huge lots as they came from the wreck, and slabbed wholesale style. It's not a case where a collector sent in a handful of coins, and the full retail fees applied. Kinda like the flood of ASE they get every year, and the wholesale submitters gets a few that grade below average, but it all works out in the end as its balanced by some better stuff. For the el cazadore coins, I almost never see the smaller coins in a high grade, sometimes there is a full date on a sea washed VG/F coin and sometimes it's just a no date type coin, and 4 Reales are pretty rare in any state.
My hoard of '82s is up to 149! 218 BC x 1, 118 BC x 3, 18 BC x 1, 82 x 1, 182 x 1, 282 x 2, 582 x 2, 682 x 1, 782 x 2, 882 x 1, 982 x 3, 1182 x 7, 1282 x 2, 1382 x 1, 1482 x 4, 1582 x 12, 1682 x 12, 1782 x 37, 1882 x 38, 1982 x 18
Edited by Collects82
04/19/2016 2:58 pm
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 Posted 04/19/2016  3:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Glenmore to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Skippypnb, Sorry about the bad link. Second try:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/272214000614

I was just trying to understand the logic here. I had to laugh at the thought of calling NGC, though: "Hey, wouldn't you agree that your certification fee far exceeds the value of this coin?" :)
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 Posted 04/19/2016  3:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Glenmore to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I think that the El Cazadore coins where generally submitted in huge lots as they came from the wreck, and slabbed wholesale style. It's not a case where a collector sent in a handful of coins, and the full retail fees applied. Kinda like the flood of ASE they get every year, and the wholesale submitters gets a few that grade below average, but it all works out in the end as its balanced by some better stuff.


Thanks! That makes sense.
Edited by Glenmore
04/19/2016 3:08 pm
Valued Member
59 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2016  4:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Skippypnb to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The coin is in a GENUINE ONLY slab. Nothing else is put on the label. Other TPGS's do the same thing. Collectors/dealers with major problem coins often ask for this service.
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 Posted 04/19/2016  5:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgenn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The market for the El Cazador coins is much larger than those of us who collect Colonial Spanish coins as a hobby. They sell for quite a premium; sometimes more than undamaged, albeit low-grade, examples.

It was one of these that got me into coin collecting in the first place but I suspect that most buyers are not or will not become serious collectors. There's still plenty of advertising material out there even if they are not being pushed so hard now.
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 Posted 04/19/2016  5:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Coinfrog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Truth be told, the major TPGs will slab almost anything in a custom holder if the demand is there.
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 Posted 04/19/2016  5:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add denco7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The El Cazador was an important shipwreck, steeped in history. It's sinking played a pivotal role in the formation of the United States and directly led to the Louisiana Purchase. It was discovered by chance when a fisherman pulled up some artifacts in his fishing net.

Odessey Marine salvaged the ship and made several deals to market the treasure of silver. Franklin mint bought a large portion of the coins and turned them into one their most successful historic coin marketing endeavors .

Many more were sent to NGC for slabbing and special labeling. I have watched these rise in value over the years, especially the higher grade ones. It has nothing to due with the coin itself (8 reales) or the silver value or even the grade. People flock to them, because they want to own a genuine piece of U.S history. A piece that had such a direct effect on the formation of this country as we now know it.
Edited by denco7
04/19/2016 5:51 pm
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 Posted 04/19/2016  11:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Glenmore I agree with most of what has been said regarding the El Cazador coins with two exceptions.

First the TPGs have slabbed numismatic forgeries as if they were Genuine El Cazador coins. When I last worked as a part time authenticator for dealer he called me in to authenticate a pair of 8Rs. They were recently made silver cast copies with EDGE SEAMS that were clear. I rejected them. The owner submitted them to ANACS with NO CLAIM the coins came from the El Cazador. They were returned net graded VF 35 and the label attributed them to the El Cazador. After that I spoke with the grader and finalizer (Note: this was the period when Mike Fayhey was NOT on staff at ANACS) They confirmed that NO ONE LOOKED AT THE EDGE - the coins were too common to bother.

Second the claim that the sinking of the El Cazador resulted in the Louisiana Purchase is not exactly factual. It is a story that was "invented" or creatively interpreted to boost coin sales. Before the El Cazador was discovered in 1993 Historians did not report such a preposterous theory. The El Cazador sank in 1784 - twenty years before Napoleon sold Louisiana to the US (president was Thomas Jefferson). Louisiana was a French possession until the end of the Seven Years War known in the US as the French and Indian War. When England and Spain (who were allies) won that war, France ceded Louisiana and all territory west of the Mississippi to Spain. In 1796 Spain had been forced, by Napoleon, to become an ally of France and war was declared by England against BOTH. This began a period of Naval Blockade by England. In 1800 Napoleon forced Spain to cede Louisiana back to France. The sale of Louisiana to the US by Napoleon was a way for Napoleon to get needed cash (about $15 million) and to avoid a potential War with the US over access to New Orleans.

So as long as you do not trust the attribution of all coins now slabbed to the wreck of the El Cazador and as long as you do not buy the hype that the sinking led directly to the purchase of Louisiana, I would agree that you have an "historic artifact".

My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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 Posted 04/20/2016  12:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GR58 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Some good information being posted here.

Not sure where mine falls, But I am happy to have it in my collection.






GoldRush58 - GR58
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 Posted 04/20/2016  1:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add thq to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yesterday I dug through my cigar box full of foreign coins looking for an 1845 French counterfeit. I thought to myself, what am I ever going to do with all these coins? Individually they're all great, but my enthusiasm has far outrun my interest.

This 1/2 R is a nice memento worth up to $25 to an interested buyer. But 5 years from now I'm betting it'll just be something sitting in someone's cigar box.

"Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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 Posted 04/20/2016  1:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
GR58 Yours by all appearances is a genuine wreck coin one of the large batch that were authenticated for the marketing effort.

The ones to be concerned with are the isolated slabs that no longer possess any form of supportive paperwork or the presentation case.

The real problem as I saw it was that in the old style ANACS holder the edge seam was entirely covered up. There was NO WAY to see the edge seam at all. The response from ANACS that a $30 coin was not worth the time to check the edge was what infuriated me. I was very glad to see Mike Fahey return to ANACS shortly later.

Does anyone know if he is still there - or has he retired?
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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