Coin Community Family of Web Sites
Like us on Facebook! Subscribe to our Youtube Channel! Check out our Twitter! Check out our Pinterest!
Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?

Welcome Guest! Need help? Got a question? Inherit some coins?
Our coin forum is completely free! Register Now!

Series 2009 $10 Notes From The Jb-c Block

Next Page | Last Page
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous Topic Topic Next Topic
Page: of 4
Valued Member

United States
78 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2016  08:53 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add xxJOExx to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello, I recently joined the Coin Community site and am making my inaugural post in the paper money forums.

I've been searching Series 2009 $10 notes to find as many notes as I can from the JB-C block because I'm trying to determine if one of the plates used in that series contains an engraving error. I'm hoping that there may be other strap searchers or data collectors here who might have notes or might have recorded serial and plate data from notes in the JB-C block.

The error -- if it exists -- involves face plate 56 and would be found on notes from position B4. The BEP plate printing log where usage of that plate was recorded includes the comment "Bad Plate # B4". What I'm trying to figure out is what that comment means, e.g., was the plate number damaged or unprintable, or was the plate number itself wrong, i.e., not 56.

Based on the data I've collected so far, face plate 56 will most likely appear in run 2, whose serials span the range 06400001 to 12800000. But I haven't been able to rule out that the plate could appear in other runs of the JB-C block.

If you have or find any Series 2009 $10 notes from the JB-C block (doesn't matter which run or plate position) and would care to share the serial and plate data, I'd be interested in adding it to the information that I've already recorded. Thanks for any help that you can offer!

Bedrock of the Community
Learn More...
United States
10249 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2016  09:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CelticKnot to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
to the forum, JOE!

Sounds like you have yourself quite the detective project!

I don't collect many $10s at this point, but I do have a couple. I'll check later on tonight and get back to you in the unlikely event that I have a note from this series & block.
Pillar of the Community
United States
2495 Posts
 Posted 05/20/2016  3:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveInTampa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Welcome to CCF Joe.

I have a few questions.

How were you able to narrow face plate B56 to just the JB-C block ?
Where do you access the BEP plate printing log ?
Are you interpreting "Bad Plate # B4" as an engraving error ?

I have many series 2009 $10 notes, but I'm a star note collector and do not have any JB-C notes, and will look for them in the future.
Pillar of the Community
United States
814 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2016  01:27 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GoldenChest to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Interesting thread, I'd like to see where this goes. I'll keep my eye out for some of these notes
Valued Member
United States
78 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2016  08:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add xxJOExx to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Sounds like you have yourself quite the detective project!

I don't collect many $10s at this point, but I do have a couple. I'll check later on tonight and get back to you in the unlikely event that I have a note from this series & block.


Thanks! Yes, it has really turned into searching for that needle. I've concluded that I need to expand the search beyond my own geographical region, which is why it would help to have other sets of eyes around the country looking for this block.


Quote:
I have a few questions.

How were you able to narrow face plate B56 to just the JB-C block ?
Where do you access the BEP plate printing log ?
Are you interpreting "Bad Plate # B4" as an engraving error ?

I have many series 2009 $10 notes, but I'm a star note collector and do not have any JB-C notes, and will look for them in the future.


Great, thanks! To answer your questions:

Face plate 56 was used in sequence with face plates 55, 57 and 59. Plates 55 and 56 were not used long and were replaced by plates 64 and 61, respectively; 59 was eventually replaced by 60. By recording serial and plate data from lots and lots notes for the entire Series 2009, I found that those plates appear in most of the JB-C block. 57, 60, 61 and 64 also appear in the JH-A block (run 8+) and JJ-A block (run 7+) - basically blocks that were serialed in the same month as JB-C - plus an occasional appearance in JF-C and JG-*. 57 was on the press for an unusually long time and appears in many more blocks. But 55 and 56 (what I have recorded so far) have been limited to JB-C, mostly run 2.

A few years ago, I made an FOIA request to the BEP for records of plate usage for a project that I was working on, which is how I came to know the details of these plates.

I think it is possible that "bad plate #" could mean an engraving error because there are a few other instances in the plate logs with similar comments. For example, a couple of entries have comments that read "Wrong plate #G4" (Series 2009 $1 back plate 142) and "F2 plate # is not right" (Series 2009A $100 back plate 125). On the other hand, there is also an entry that reads "E3 Plate # nonprintable" (Series 2009 $1 face plate 136). So as to the $10 face plate B56, I'm attempting to determine if "Bad Plate #" means wrong number or nonprintable. It would be far cooler if it meant wrong number!
Pillar of the Community
United States
2495 Posts
 Posted 05/21/2016  09:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveInTampa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
By recording serial and plate data from lots and lots notes for the entire Series 2009,


The series 2009 $10 had 1.465 Billion (Billion with a "B") notes printed. Even if you searched 140,000 notes, it would be less than 1/10th of 1 percent of the notes. Is that enough sampling to make these determinations ?

I'd like to see some of the plate information you received from the BEP. Is there any way you could post it here ?
Valued Member
United States
78 Posts
 Posted 05/22/2016  3:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add xxJOExx to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The series 2009 $10 had 1.465 Billion (Billion with a "B") notes printed. Even if you searched 140,000 notes, it would be less than 1/10th of 1 percent of the notes. Is that enough sampling to make these determinations ?


I'm up to 10,817 so far

But yes, even 10,817 is a large enough sample size, for a few reasons. First, the data is well-mixed and is close to being randomly distributed throughout the series. Second, excluding JB* (which was reported by the BEP as the very first star run of the series and yet does not appear to exist, as no notes from the run are known), the data include notes from all of the other 232 print runs in the series. Moreover, the data include at least one note from more than 80% of all 10,000-sheet stacks used in the series. This is significant because each 200,000-sheet run is comprised of 20 10,000-sheet stacks (the standard unit used in the printing process), so 80% of all 10,000-sheet stacks means that on average, 16 of 20 stacks in a given run are represented in the data. Third, unlike $1 or $100 note production, the volume of $10 note production does not usually require simultaneous use of more than one press at a time. As a result, the transition between two different plate sequences tends to be fairly sharply defined. Once a new sequence starts to appear in the data, there is typically little back and forth between the old and new sequences, making it easier to identify the block/run limits of the sequence.


Quote:
I'd like to see some of the plate information you received from the BEP. Is there any way you could post it here ?


The documents that I've received from the BEP have taken many forms, and I've never received the same format twice. Here is the page that shows usage of Series 2009 $10 face plates 55, 56, 57 and 59 and their subsequent replacement. Count down 31 lines to see where FP 56 was loaded to the press on 1/31/2013.

Pillar of the Community
United States
2495 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2016  07:12 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveInTampa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks Joe......gimme a minute to digest this.
Valued Member
United States
446 Posts
 Posted 05/23/2016  11:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DCM Coins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow!

I've been compiling plate numbers observed on $2 bills was well as $100 bills, but not tens.

Is there a comprehensive listing of plate numbers used for each series and denomination somewhere?
Pillar of the Community
United States
2495 Posts
 Posted 05/24/2016  05:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SteveInTampa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Pretty cool Joe.

My observations are that this Plate Printing Plate Log is for about 6 months on one press.

I see many notations about cracks, blisters, dimples and denomination change. I'm guessing that when abnormalities
surface and are detected, plates are pulled, sheets are destroyed, and star notes come into play. The BEP does not want to distribute error notes, and through constant inspection and re-inspection of the final product very, very few engraving errors and errors in general ever see the light of day.

Very cool plate log. I have never seen one before.
Pillar of the Community
United States
592 Posts
 Posted 05/24/2016  06:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cashhound to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I've been compiling plate numbers observed on $2 bills was well as $100 bills

DCMcoins, did you find anything interesting on the $100s?
Valued Member
United States
446 Posts
 Posted 05/24/2016  08:45 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DCM Coins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Not really. Seems as if the Fort Worth hundreds have faceplates well into the 400s. That suggests that they're printing a lot of them, but also that they can't be used for as many impressions as a faceplate for a $1 bill before the plate needs retiring.
Valued Member
United States
78 Posts
 Posted 05/24/2016  3:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add xxJOExx to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
My observations are that this Plate Printing Plate Log is for about 6 months on one press.

I see many notations about cracks, blisters, dimples and denomination change. I'm guessing that when abnormalities
surface and are detected, plates are pulled, sheets are destroyed, and star notes come into play. The BEP does not want to distribute error notes, and through constant inspection and re-inspection of the final product very, very few engraving errors and errors in general ever see the light of day.


That's a good point and brings up a related "question unknown" that I'm trying to answer: Whatever the problem was with note B4, would it have met the BEP's criteria for destruction? This is a critical question because for all I know, I've been on a wild goose chase the whole time...

I suspect that you are correct, namely, that whenever a problem arises that involves plate damage of some kind (e.g., "Dig D2" and "Cracked Plate - G4 Note") that BEP personnel go back and scrutinize the sheets that were printed most recently from the problem plate, looking particularly at the note or notes where the problem was identified. Based on a comparison of registration counts of the "plate on" and "plate off" dates with observed plate numbers from notes in circulation, I'd also guess that all of the sheets that display evidence of the problem are discarded and contribute toward the overall spoilage rate.

But how are sheets selected for destruction? Given that sheets are printed in sequences of 4 (or 3 in the case of SOI), does the BEP have a mechanism to cherrypick select sheets? Possibly, but I don't really know.

In the case of Series 2009 $10 FP 56, the problem with note B4was not noticed until six days after the plate was put into service and more than 27,000 impressions had been made. Based on that figure, and provided that sheets from that plate weren't otherwise destroyed prior to serial overprinting, I'd expect FP 56 to turn up in about half of a run (27,000 sheets x 4 plates in sequence = 108,000 sheets).

Notes from other plate positions on FP 56 exist, so that at least tells me that all of the sheets were not discarded en masse.



However, the two FP 56 notes that I have observed come from the left half of the sheet. Three others reported to me also come from the left half of the sheet. I've received just a single report of a FP 56 note from the right half of the sheet, position A4. I haven't seen that note myself, but if that report is accurate, then the at least some sheets from the right half were overprinted with serials, in which case notes from position B4ought to exist.

The difficulty has been finding notes from run 2 at all. I've only found 11 notes from the right half of that run, and I've received reports of 9 others. But it is not possible to draw conclusions about FP 56 without additional data. Based on what data that I do have, I suspect that most sheets from FP 56 were overprinted with serials and that they make up about half of JB-C run 2. But not being able to find notes from run 2 (regardless of plate number) leaves me not knowing either way.

Hence my entreaty for help with finding notes from the JB-C block!


Quote:
I've been compiling plate numbers observed on $2 bills was well as $100 bills, but not tens.

Is there a comprehensive listing of plate numbers used for each series and denomination somewhere?


None that I know of aside from internal BEP records. Not being able to find this information anywhere is the reason that I started keeping my own records.

Have you recorded any Series 2009A $100s from plate position F2? One of the plate logs included the comment "F2 plate # is not right" on Series 2009A $100 back plate 125. That plate was part of the sequence 122-124-125-126. BP 125 was on the press for 11 days before it was replaced by BP 128. It was used to make 150,000+ impressions, so notes from plate position F2 could easily exist in 5.5+ runs, if those sheets weren't destroyed. I don't have enough serial and plate data from $100s to narrow down which runs BP 125 would appear in. As best as I can tell, it would be somewhere in the LB-F and/or LB-G blocks.

Valued Member
United States
446 Posts
 Posted 05/24/2016  10:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DCM Coins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Have you recorded any Series 2009A $100s from plate position F2? One of the plate logs included the comment "F2 plate # is not right" on Series 2009A $100 back plate 125. That plate was part of the sequence 122-124-125-126. BP 125 was on the press for 11 days before it was replaced by BP 128. It was used to make 150,000+ impressions, so notes from plate position F2 could easily exist in 5.5+ runs, if those sheets weren't destroyed. I don't have enough serial and plate data from $100s to narrow down which runs BP 125 would appear in. As best as I can tell, it would be somewhere in the LB-F and/or LB-G blocks.


Here's what I have. Full serials are redacted as that most of these have been entered into Where's George.

LB 1090xxxx B F2 FW F104 79 071815
LB 2051xxxx D F2 FW F131 109 030716
LB 2694xxxx D F2 FW F114 96 031415
LB 3973xxxx N F2 FW F459 366 121915
LD 6859xxxx A F2 F57 40 082215
LG 6217xxxx A F2 FW F12 7 112815
LH 5579xxxx B F2 FW F364 257 101715
LL 1733xxxx B F2 FW F36 42 071815
LL 2696xxxx B F2 FW F54 41 041215

If there were anomalies, they have gotten by me.

I have, in my logs, compiled plate information for all bills I've entered into WG, but haven't tracked all bills on its own spreadsheet aside from twos and hundreds.

One project I want to do someday is to build up a list of all printing plate numbers observed from my logs, but that may be a retirement thing. Plus, I've now got this competing interest of searching boxes of coins.








Pillar of the Community
United States
1307 Posts
 Posted 06/14/2016  5:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinsearcher83 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm glad I'm not the only one who logs serial/plate data! Let me know if there's any other data you need. Most of mine is from Series 1995-2001 I kept when I was 8... have globs of data since then, and recently restarted logging. Not much data, but any bit might help.
Edited by coinsearcher83
06/14/2016 5:11 pm
Valued Member
United States
78 Posts
 Posted 06/15/2016  08:41 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add xxJOExx to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I'm glad I'm not the only one who logs serial/plate data! Let me know if there's any other data you need. Most of mine is from Series 1995-2001 I kept when I was 8... have globs of data since then, and recently restarted logging. Not much data, but any bit might help.


Sure, I'd be glad to exchange data with any other data collectors out there.

Nothing new to report in the search for JB-C notes. I keep looking, but no new information.
Page: of 4 Previous Topic Topic Next Topic  
 
To participate in the forum you must log in or register.

Coin Community Member eBay Sales

Certified Coins   Certified VAMs   Certified Errors  




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2020 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2020 Coin Community Forums
It took 1.27 seconds to rattle this change. Powered By: Snitz Forums 2000 Version 3.4.05