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Let's Play Which One Is The Counterfeited Coin

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Valued Member
Uruguay
217 Posts
 Posted 09/29/2016  3:22 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add cara to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hi, I have these two coins, Silver Crown United Kingdom 1887. I bought the first one, three years ago, It has like corrosion damage and it was cleaned.







I have just received the second one , it is well preserved with some scratches.






I think that one of them is a silver counterfeit. I will post the measures (weight, diameter, thickness and specific gravity) in a few days!!

Which one do you think is the fake?
Bets are wellcome!....it is a joke haha








Edited by cara
09/29/2016 3:24 pm
Valued Member
United States
449 Posts
 Posted 09/29/2016  4:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add eagle_eye_18 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The first one is fake! I think :-) and my logic is the lack of details.
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 Posted 09/29/2016  7:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add coinlover1899 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The first one.
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United States
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 Posted 09/29/2016  7:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add moxking to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
First is the bad tomato.
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United States
696 Posts
 Posted 09/29/2016  8:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Goldflake to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Both are counterfeits.
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United States
18302 Posts
 Posted 09/29/2016  9:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Spence to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm gonna guess both are fake. I don't like the denticles being different lengths on the first coin and the second coin seems to have a silver wash on it.
"If you climb a good tree, you get a push."
-----Ghanaian proverb

"The danger we all now face is distinguishing between what is authentic and what is performed."
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Valued Member
Uruguay
217 Posts
 Posted 09/30/2016  12:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cara to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok....I think one of the coins is totally authentic based on the measures. I will post them but before I would like to follow this discussion, because it is very interesting and useful to train our eyes against fakes.

To add to the discussion.....

I wonder how a counterfeiter could dissimulate the defects of his fake coin?


And more photos (in pairs, the first coin compared to the second coin)


Dragon





St. George





Horse





Tail





Date





Bust





Face





Lettering



Valued Member
Lithuania
363 Posts
 Posted 09/30/2016  12:52 pm  Show Profile   Check giedrius's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add giedrius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The first is fake without any doubt. All the small details show it.
Catalogue of Lithuanian half-groats 1495-1529 http://goccf.com/t/282866
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United States
51 Posts
 Posted 09/30/2016  2:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add drk1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The second one clearly has more detail and sharper detail.
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 Posted 10/01/2016  01:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I was fairly sure it was the second until I looked at some of the detail pictures. Then I could see why others said one.

Truth be told I do not like either but for entirely different reasons. I will be interested to hear more about the two coins weight density etc.

These are collared steam press strikes made from fully hubbed dies - so they are not anything I really care for.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Valued Member
Uruguay
217 Posts
 Posted 10/02/2016  9:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cara to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I want to refer to the second coin first. It has full sharp details, I do not see anything to worry about, the toned colour is ok to me. What is more determinant, the physical parameters seem to be correct.

Diameter: 38.75 mm
Edge Thickness: 2.85 mm
Weight: 28.28 gms.
SG: 10.36

Of course, the coin could be an excellent modern counterfeit, but I do not think so.


Now, let's talk about the first coin. I have had doubts since I purchased it, I do not like many things.

Firstly, as you have noted, the coin has lack of details, despite the fact that it has good relief design in general. The surface shows an aspect like corroded, which could explain the lack of details.
However, corrosion is not like the sea salvage coins that I have seen before, with big areas damaged. It is as a porosity that was polished, and is more evident between the lettering, because is not easy to polish there.





Secondly, there are some suspicious bubbles.








Another strange thing, the sound when I hit the coin is not like silver. I have compared it with the other coin and is more drowned and the half of time duration.

Finally, the physical parameters
Diameter: 38.75 mm
Edge Thickness: 2.75 mm
Weight: 27.62 gms.
SG: 10.12

On the one hand the diameter and thickness are correct and the coin wear and corrosion may explain weight loss (0.66 g). However, the specific gravity is wrong for the sterling silver 0.925

In conclusion, In my opinion the first coin is a counterfeit. I think the counterfeiter has hidden the imperfections with corroding and polishing. The alloy could be silver 0.800 but I wonder why the sound does not match.

I do not had seen any fake UK crown coin before.
What do you think about?
Edited by cara
10/02/2016 9:18 pm
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 Posted 10/03/2016  12:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have revised my position slightly. I have from my perspective determined that BOTH posted coins must be numismatic forgeries produced using somewhat different methods. I believe they are both made recently and that they may possibly be silver or debased silver. At least the high grade coin was made to fool a more select order of collectors. Even though it is better there are tell-tale signs of forgery.

I did this examination using the procedure I always followed when addressing a coin for which an initial decision was being appealed at eBay. At eBay an initial decision based on one or two votes could be reversed or upheld if all of the members reached an agreement together after considering both sides.

There is one area that sums up perfectly where the problems lie and what the difference in manufacture was.

See below:



Look at this enlargement of a small section of the obverse near the edge of the coin. The coin at the far left is a genuine coin beyond any dispute. It shows how England actually prepared their dies for the Crown coin in 1887 and how those dies were employed.

The other two are the examples shown in this thread. Each has one or more characteristics of a forgery.

These are obviously not all of the points of failure (I always keep some in reserve which have NOT been published). The errors I will refer to are very well known and have been written about many times.

The genuine coin was struck with a die that was NOT lathed totally smooth beyond the design perimeter which ended at the termination of the fence or rail road track like design. Below see a sketch where # 1 is the slightly rough die surface # 2 is the edge of the design which was hubbed into the die and # 3 is the inside circle of the design.




Compare this to the other two coins. They are made differently. First look at the worn coin - the pickets in the fence are irregular in shape and are not sharp on their edges also the connection to the inner circle is ragged. This looks like a transfer image die that had some of the weaker details recut on the die itself. The circle itself has similar problems that go well beyond simple wear. The die face at the edge of the die was not lathed just as in was on the genuine coin. However the reeds on the worn coin appear to be very irregularly spaced compared to the reeds on the genuine coin.




Next review the higher grade coin. First of all note the lathed portion of the die face that extends half way through the outer rim. This is seen on many dies where the image involved a plastic matrix that shrunk slightly and necessitated a slight diameter increase. Also note the impression of the edge of the collar die. That simply should not be present unless the incorrect collar was being used. Second notice the shape of the reeds - they are not the same as the genuine coin. Finally where is the inner circle?



Next I want to focus on one letter the E in REG and how it was impressed on the coin. Compare the three E's. The pictures are in the same order with the genuine coin at the left.




Here the fact that the worn coin is with no doubt a counterfeit is very clear. The edges of the letters are NOT sharp where the letter meets the die face. This should never be effected by wear (it is protected) and yet the worn coin's transition is horrible. In places you can see a meniscus. The higher grade coin has a broken E but the brakes do not coincide with any typical die wear patterns like wear bifurcation. No here the problem is very small chipping of the plastic impression when the host coin was removed from the plastic impression.

A quick review shows well over 20 points on the high grade coin that conclusively tell me it is a forgery. The worn coin has literally too many to count.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
Edited by swamperbob
10/03/2016 12:27 am
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United States
696 Posts
 Posted 10/03/2016  12:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Goldflake to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Great work swamperbob.
Valued Member
Uruguay
217 Posts
 Posted 10/03/2016  10:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add cara to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wow Swamperbob, I am impressed !!

If the second crown is a counterfeit, then we need to review all others we have.

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United States
5072 Posts
 Posted 10/04/2016  12:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If I had to bet, I would say that it was made by the same operation that produced the very scary 1847 UK Crown coins.

I have records of 19 that were sold on eBay by different name sellers over a 3-4 month period about 2 years ago. Many of the identification tells used to identify that forgery are nearly identical to those I used in this case.

The 1847 Crown was valuable enough to raise suspicion and after we saw a few they became very easy to spot. They typically sold on eBay between $ 1 and $2,000. I was able to buy one as a forgery for a very reasonable price. This forgery does illustrate how well they can be made.

Here are a few of the pictures used to sell that forgery to refresh your memories. It was a topic on this forum for a while.









All of these that I have subsequently examined have been silver - all matched UK specifications rather closely. They really sold well and most buyers did not have a clue they were dealing with numismatic forgeries.

The forgers have smartened up by making common dates. That is perhaps because the 1847 helped them to correct defects. The 1887 is a far more common coin. A sale for $100 or $150 does provide a massive profit since the raw materials is only 0.84 ounces of silver.
My book on Counterfeit Portrait 8Rs is available from Amazon http://ccfgo.com/TheUnrealReales or from me directly if you want it signed.
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United States
1774 Posts
 Posted 10/04/2016  02:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jpbone to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob, very impressive work! You are a huge asset to this community! Even if I had the expertise, I would not have had the patience to put together a post so detailed and precise.
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