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1943 "Bronze" "Copper" "Experimental" ..... Real/Fake?

 
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New Member
United States
31 Posts
 Posted 01/14/2017  6:46 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add dtl to your friends list Get a Link to this Message
Hello there, new here on this forum. Here is a 1943 cent I acquired recently, non magnetic. It's weight matches those of experimental shell case planchets struck in oct. 1943, according to Roger Burdettes' research. I will be sending it in next week. Thanks for your time and valued opinions! let me know if you need better pictures and I will try my best.



































*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***
Edited by dtl
01/14/2017 6:53 pm
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 Posted 01/14/2017  6:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add RoyCoinBoy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Though I seriously doubt it is real, I am not seeing any differences between yours and a genuine.
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 Posted 01/14/2017  6:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add The Silver Searcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply


If I may ask, how did you acquire it?
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 Posted 01/14/2017  7:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Illegaltender to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I also don't see any red flags. I sure hope it is real, though I am skeptical.
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 Posted 01/14/2017  7:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add panzaldi to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
you can weigh it to give you an idea the copper 43 should weigh 2.7 grams
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 Posted 01/14/2017  8:22 pm  Show Profile   Check nss-52's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add nss-52 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Per PCGS Coin Facts, there are under 20 known bronze 1943 cents. For you to have acquired a previously unknown specimen would be truly spectacular.

So, just exactly how did you acquire this coin?
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 Posted 01/14/2017  8:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add llewellin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My first impression is this has a pure copper surface; just looking at the color of the surface, it looks too reddish to be any kind of brass/bronze. My guess is a pure copper forgery or copper plated 1943.
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 Posted 01/14/2017  8:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The experimental shell case cents produced in late 1943 were supposedly 85 or 90% copper and should also weigh 3.1 g, just like other copper 1943 cents. The steelies weigh 2.7 g, but it's obviously not steel if non-magnetic. Low likelihood that it's genuine, but it would be a phenomenal find if real.
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 Posted 01/14/2017  9:11 pm  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Altered date 1942?
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
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 Posted 01/14/2017  9:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alex12780 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Don't take my word for it, but could the worn I in liberty be concerning?
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 Posted 01/14/2017  11:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dtl to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks guys, The coin was recently purchased from Puerto Rico.

The color also concerned me, but after going through thousands of pennies and the variations in color, it does not. Noteing the variations of compositions of metals and the different weights listed for experimental 1943's,also lack of consistences of shell caseing and scrap metals used, the weight does not concern me either.

The week I, also I noticed, but examining all known photo's of genuine specimens of 43 off metal cents, I found this to be a common flaw. Once again another variable leaves me wondering.

No I do not believe it is an altered 42, or altered at all. But I can only see so good.

I have seen some comparisons of side by side fakes n real, with added lines for inspecting and the likes. I don't know how to use those programs nor can I blow up the current photos too see if it is die struck or cast. I only recently understand the difference but I am unable to tell the difference. On the one in a million chance the coin is authentic any guesses on the grade?

This penny has me
Edited by dtl
01/14/2017 11:15 pm
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 Posted 01/14/2017  11:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add llewellin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One test you might be able to do is to test the strength of eddy currents in your cent, which will tell you something about the composition.

If you have or can obtain a large strong neodymium magnet, you can touch it to the coin, then lift quickly. The eddy currents in the metal will oppose the change in magnetic field through the coin and cause the coin to lift up temporarily, along with the magnet.

If you can compare the height to which the cent rises to a normal bronze cent reproducibly, you can determine whether it has the same conductivity (and composition) throughout. If, as I suspect, the coin is pure copper, it should be at least twice as conductive as a 95% copper cent and lift much higher with the magnet. Of course this is to be done over a cloth or carpet, but is another safe, non destructive test I personally use to verify silver content of coins I buy.
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 Posted 01/15/2017  12:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Zurie to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Any history of how it got to Puerto Rico? If it really is an experimental shell casing coin, I can't imagine it was ever circulated.
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 Posted 01/15/2017  12:24 am  Show Profile   Check paralyse's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add paralyse to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From a mineralogy point of view, copper has a Mohs hardness of 3 and will streak copper orange-red on a porcelain streak tile, with a noticeable coppery luster.

Depending on the alloy, steel has a Mohs hardness of 4-7, and it will have a streak that is grey, greyish black, or black with metallic luster, unless the metal is extremely high in iron content, in which case the streak will be a rusty reddish brown with dull to greasy metallic luster.

In other words, a mostly-copper cent will not easily scratch a steel cent, but can be scratched by a steel cent, and a steel cent will not be easily scratched by a copper cent.

Another test you can do at home is density displacement: (approximations)

Density of a modern Zinc cent: 7.1-7.7 g/cc
Density of a 1946-1982 copper cent: 8.5-8.9 g/cc
Density of a steel cent: 7.7-8.0 g/cc
Density of common brass alloy: 8.4-8.5 g/cc

Take a coin-safe substance such as distilled water and fill a 10 ml graduated piece of glassware such as a 100ml flask or beaker to a meniscus level of, say, 50ml.
Drop in any pre-1982 non steel cent and mark the level of rise in the meniscus using a glass marker or sharpie.
Remove the coin, reset the water level to 50ml meniscus, and repeat w/a modern Zincoln, and mark the level again. It should be lower than the first mark.
If you have a steel cent available, use that as a control and mark its meniscus level as well. It should be between the first two marks.

Repeat one more time with your coin.

Observe the rested meniscus level:
If it is copper plated steel, it will be in between the copper and zinc (first and second) marks and just barely above the third (control) mark (the copper plating will add the slightest density to the steel.)
If it is pure copper, it will be slightly above the tallest mark, as it will have the highest density displacement.
If it is made of another non-magnetic ferrous alloy, such as brass, it will be just below the tallest mark or in between the tallest and middle (steel cent) marks, as brass is just slightly less dense than copper, but denser than steel.

This is non-destructive and can be easily accomplished with minimal effort and a Three Cent investment + a 100ml beaker, albeit somewhat old school. :)
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC
Specializing in 1932-1964 Washington quarters

"Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis
Edited by paralyse
01/15/2017 12:27 am
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 Posted 01/15/2017  12:54 am  Show Profile   Check thedollarman's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add thedollarman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i'll admit I haven't read through the entire thread, but have read most of it..but does anyone else see a rim clip on this?

hoping this is the read deal!
feel free to call me Will. I'm a 19 year old collector from the GTA area of Ontario.

my PMs are always open, whether you have a question or simply wish to talk.
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 Posted 01/15/2017  01:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Alpha2814 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The strike of the '3' bothers me. It looks kinda thick on the lower arc but weak at the tail. The general shape and placement looks right. If it's an altered '2', it's a good one.
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