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1859 J16 D Die States ?

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Pillar of the Community
Canada
1427 Posts
 Posted 04/06/2017  11:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian-varieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Die crack to leaf 14

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 Posted 04/07/2017  06:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
CV, after checking over your obverse and comparing letters, I am convinced it is obverse 57. The repunching on VICTORIA, especially the bottom of the R is not like any other obverse.

I've also checked through the possible known reverses and I don't find any matches. I believe at this point your coin is a new J reverse. All of the important features of this reverse (repunched 5, stem to leaf 9, loop 2) are close to J16d, but slightly different in every case. Even the fine die crack at leaf 14 could be the start of the J16d crack. But as MG pointed out there appears to be a fine crack at leaf 12 also, which couldn't be there on J16d. I'll keep checking, but I'd say it's probably a new one!

This thread has taken a detour from the original topic, but I still would love to see some other J16d die states if anyone has some to post.
Edited by Phil310
04/07/2017 06:43 am
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 Posted 04/07/2017  07:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add viper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a side by side photo of my cent to the left and CV'S cent to the right...

the five's are totally different.

Not the same reverse at all. A new die rev. in my opinion.



MG




]
Edited by viper
04/07/2017 08:17 am
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 Posted 04/07/2017  08:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Lots of nice die clashes visible on your reverse MG!
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 Posted 04/07/2017  09:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DEVLEC to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Beautiful examples above,..and yes totally different.

I don't have an example to compare with though..but thanks for sharing these beauties with us..
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 Posted 04/07/2017  09:42 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add papeldog to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just finished going through my 1859's I don't have one of these either I checked on the Haxby site for the 5 but I can't seem to find it either
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 Posted 04/07/2017  10:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll look at mine. I have 10-15 DP'd 5's, but I have no idea about what Haxby #'s that they will be.

BTW, I wouldn't be too hasty to call this a new Rev ... CV's example looks like a partially filled die with the vertical part of the 5, making it look thicker and straighter. The other is a much sharper, better defined 5/5 but, if you blurr out the clearly evident 2 strikes, they aren't that much different ... especially when you have the D/C at 14. I'm just amazed that CV's graded 63 with the marks and cleaned-up old minor corrosion.... the digits appear to be much more worn that MG's example.

The problem with examining overpunches is that you can never tell which was the first and which was the 2nd blow/punch. The D/C at 14 really mystifies me by comparing the 2 of them.
Edited by okiecoiner
04/07/2017 10:33 am
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 Posted 04/07/2017  3:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian-varieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
CV-J16d-Coin02

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 Posted 04/07/2017  3:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian-varieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
CV-J16d-Coin03:

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 Posted 04/07/2017  3:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian-varieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
CV-J16d-Coin01 seems to be the earliest die state (no die crack at base of leaf 9).

CV-J16d-Coin03 seems to be the next stage with a faint semicircular die crack around base of leaf 9 (the 5/5 is similar to Coin01).

CV-J16d-Coin02 seems to be a later die state with a distinct semicircular die crack around base of leaf 9 but the 5 looks different.

Is it at all POSSIBLE that the 5 was repunched a second time at a later die state of the J16d and that's why the 5s look different between the "earlier states" and "later states"?

Viper's coin is the next stage after CV-J16d-Coin02.

Phil's coin is a much later stage.
Edited by canadian-varieties
04/07/2017 6:05 pm
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 Posted 04/07/2017  6:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Phil310 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for the Photos CV! They will be very helpful. Looks like the die crack at leaf 9 was the first to appear.

Your last two are definitely J16d. I still think the first one is a new die.

Take a close look at the stem to leaf 9. It has a bend downward just before it enters the leaf on the J16d. On the first coin you posted the stem has a more steady curve as it enters the leaf.

All of the obverse 77's paired with J16d are from a state with a heavier crack at the top of the R of REGINA. The Obverse 77 paired with your first coin has just the slightest trace of that die crack indicating it was probably paired with 77 earlier than J16d with one or two other reverses between it and the J16d.

Also If the die crack at leaf 9 was the first to appear on J16d, your first coin has a crack at 14 and what appears to be a very fine crack at 12, but no crack at 9.

Can you give us a closeup picture of the 9 on your first coin? It looks like it may have a slight repunch at the top right.
Edited by Phil310
04/07/2017 6:48 pm
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 Posted 04/07/2017  7:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian-varieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Phil310...I think you're right.

Here are close-ups of the 59 with the mildly repunched 9.

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 Posted 04/07/2017  7:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian-varieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Close-up of Leaf 9

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 Posted 04/07/2017  7:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian-varieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Close-up of Die crack at leaf 12

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 Posted 04/07/2017  7:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add canadian-varieties to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Close-up of Die Crack at leaf 14

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